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MeetChristians.com / Forums / Biblical & Theological Issues

No. 0     Original Topic: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 8, 2017 at 6:22 PM   Viewed 1854 times     
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [Ekklesian]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church[Ekklesia]n and gave Himself up for her


Interlinear translations of the scriptures above and the meaning of the work "ekklesia" or "Ecclesia" follows:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/5-25.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/16-18.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/ekkle_sian_1577.htm

Ecclesia (or Ekklesia) in Christian theology means both: a particular body of faithful people, and the whole body of the faithful. Latin ecclesia, from Greek ekklesia had an original meaning of "assembly, congregation, council", literally "convocation".


con·vo·ca·tion
ˌkänvəˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun noun: convocation; plural noun: convocations

1. a large formal assembly of people.
North American
a formal ceremony at a college or university, as for the conferring of awards.
synonyms: assembly, gathering, meeting, conference, convention, congress, council, symposium, colloquium, conclave, synod
"a convocation of church leaders"
2. the action of calling people together for a large formal assembly.


Members of the ekklesia, the church, have been literally "called out" of the world (in Greek ekklesia is related to kaleo, "to call") in order to live free of its dictates and to belong fully, at every moment, to God and to one another.


Where did the name "church" come from? English is a Germanic language (it evolved from German). Here is the word "church's" origin. Today it is Kerche in German which means "belonging to the Lord". It's origin follows:

From Middle High German kirche, from Old High German chirihha, an early borrowing from Ancient Greek κυριακόν (kuriakón). Compare Dutch kerk, English church.


From Middle English chirche, from Old English ċiriċe (“church”), from Proto-Germanic *kirikǭ, an early borrowing of Ancient Greek κυριακόν (kuriakón), neuter form of κυριακός (kuriakós, “belonging to the lord”), from κύριος (kúrios, “ruler, lord”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱēw-, *ḱwā- (“to swell, spread out, be strong ...



So Church is this: It is not a building, not a denomination, not a pastorship ... but an assembly of people who have been called out that belong to the Lord.

I Have truly disliked all the inaccurate 'teachings' 'against' Church here on MC, so I thought I'd offer the actual definition for anyone who might consider why I might defend the Church. Despite the negativity and generalization about 'churches' (mostly online) today, I have joy to see the Church flourishing (the 'gathering' of His) in meeting the last prophecy to be fulfilled (the spreading of the Gospel to all).

Have you received your calling?

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

No. 1     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 9, 2017 at 5:57 PM     
A while back, quite by accident, I ran across the poem, "Tam O' Shanter." It is an old Scottish tale that involved witches that were seen dancing in the old "Alloway Kirk." Believe it or not, I found it quite enlightening. It opened up more meaning for me into some of the mysteries of why certain beliefs are what they are. I looked up Alloway Kirk, and found that by 1790, it was an old ruin of a church that had existed there years before. So I looked up the word, "kirk," and at that time found a definition that was closer to an actual building, or an edifice, rather than ecclesia or assembly. At that time I found it easy to understand why people associate "church" with a building. That was a few years ago. Now, as in today, I look up "kirk" and find more definitions in line with church as we understand it according to the biblical meaning, and am hard driven to find that which I so easily discovered the first time. I don't think I'm losing my mind, but I do think the Internet is evolving. But here is my latest find on "church."

The etymology of this word is generally assumed to be from the Greek, kurios oikos (house of the Lord); but this is most improbable, as the word existed in all the Celtic dialects long before the introduction of the Greek. No doubt the word means ‘a circle.’

The places of worship among the German and Celtic nations were always circular (witness circular Stonehenge, the most ancient stone megaliths on earth).

Compare Anglo-Saxon 'circe', a small church, with 'circol', a circle. In Scotland it is called "Kirk" and in Gemany it is "Kirche," in England it is the word "Circe" (the "c" having a "k" sound).

"Kirke/Circe" was also the name of a Goddess. Kirke or Circe was the daughter of the Sun god, who was famous for taming wild animals for her circus.

http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?4,762067,762067


So now I have moved from a building, back to assembly (where I originally started), and now to some goddess? All in the name of church?
No. 2     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 9, 2017 at 8:25 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [Ekklesian]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Yes, a true Church will have a person who has given up all (no marital relationship, no family encumbrances and no personal property) to lead both believers and disciples. I don’t see that in Protestantism except in some fundamental Pentecostal groups. Power has corrupted Catholic clergy

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church[Ekklesia]n and gave Himself up for her


Before a husband can love his wife, she has to satisfy this first:

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Those who don’t accept the leadership of husband in a family, cannot expect a husband to love them! You are jumping and skipping for convenience

Have you received your calling?


Protestants conveniently want to answer the call of Paul, not of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


This helped me to associate with a local non-denominational church since no church is perfect. I continue to glorify Jesus irrespective which assembly I may attend questioning the ‘ear tickling’ theories propagated in a business-like fashion for a living.

No. 3     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 9, 2017 at 9:03 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

A while back, quite by accident, I ran across the poem, "Tam O' Shanter." It is an old Scottish tale that involved witches that were seen dancing in the old "Alloway Kirk."


Well, THAT'S interesting. Locally, there is an ice skating rink called "Tam O' Shanter." The local Young Life used it for hockey games it organized between high schools. Wonder if they knew the name of the rink came from witchcraft?



here is my latest find on "church."

The etymology of this word is generally assumed to be from the Greek, kurios oikos (house of the Lord); but this is most improbable, as the word existed in all the Celtic dialects long before the introduction of the Greek. No doubt the word means ‘a circle.’

The places of worship among the German and Celtic nations were always circular (witness circular Stonehenge, the most ancient stone megaliths on earth).

Compare Anglo-Saxon 'circe', a small church, with 'circol', a circle. In Scotland it is called "Kirk" and in Gemany it is "Kirche," in England it is the word "Circe" (the "c" having a "k" sound).




Not all Christian terminology came from 'the church.' As an example, "ekklesia" was a common Greek word that at the time of Jesus referred to the menfolk gathering at the gate (think I got that right - looked it up quite a while back), which gives rise to what did the N.T. house churches call themselves, other than 'the [church?] that meets at Lydia's house. They most probably would not have used ekklesia as the common meaning was as mentioned above, so using that word for 'church' would have caused confusion. Obviously later, perhaps much later, 'ekklesia' would have been fine. Maybe they called it a 'circle gathering,' or maybe they actually used the word 'church'.



"Kirke/Circe" was also the name of a Goddess. Kirke or Circe was the daughter of the Sun god, who was famous for taming wild animals for her circus.

http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?4,762067,762067


So now I have moved from a building, back to assembly (where I originally started), and now to some goddess? All in the name of church?


I don't think there is much correlation between circe or kirk, and the false goddess name of Circe, but I have been known to be mistaken once or twice .


(Incidentally I just found a local house church that calls itself 'Kurios Church.' I'm only in the beginning stages of involvement, but they seem to understand the N.T. meaning of 'church', unlike the previous HC's I checked out that always had some sort of problem really understanding the full idea of meeting and being together.)
No. 4     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 7:52 AM     
My simplistic definition of the church is ...

A Gathering ... Being with the Lord and Each Other.

Matthew 18: 20 ... ( New Living Translation ) ...

" For where two or three gather together because they are mine, I am there among them."



No. 5     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 10:05 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

My simplistic definition of the church is ...

A Gathering ... Being with the Lord and Each Other.

Matthew 18: 20 ... ( New Living Translation ) ...

" For where two or three gather together because they are mine, I am there among them."



Thanks for posting that, RPM. I don't have a copy of the NLT yet, but your verse and others that have popped up here and there are convincing me that I must rectify that lack.
No. 6     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 12:22 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Thanks for posting that, RPM. I don't have a copy of the NLT yet, but your verse and others that have popped up here and there are convincing me that I must rectify that lack.



I'm not sure about you Stormchaser, but I like referring to different Bible versions ... comparing them ... and ... seeing the different ways a particular verse is being presented.

The New Living Translation ... along with the King James, New King James, and God's Word versions are stacked up on the floor by my recliner in the study. All I need to do is bend over slightly to my left and grab one.

I hope it works out for you to " rectify your lack " ( still love how you words things ).

No. 7     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 12:57 PM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:


I hope it works out for you to " rectify your lack " ( still love how you words things ).



I have often mused (another 'word') as to how words just 'pop' up into my brain when I am writing something - words that are often esoteric or eclectic, lol, and I then think to myself, "Where did THAT come from?"

Half the time I have to use a dictionary to make sure what has 'popped up' is relevant and/or appropriate, let alone the correct spelling.

Many in my past have suggested I should be an author. Not sure if my 'words' have something to do with that. :tongue:
No. 8     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 4:53 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

A while back, quite by accident, I ran across the poem, "Tam O' Shanter." It is an old Scottish tale that involved witches that were seen dancing in the old "Alloway Kirk."


Well, THAT'S interesting. Locally, there is an ice skating rink called "Tam O' Shanter." The local Young Life used it for hockey games it organized between high schools. Wonder if they knew the name of the rink came from witchcraft?


From that story, and from what I learned about early Catholic missionaries in Europe and the islands of the UK, it seemed to me that these so-called "witches" were nothing more than older people who longed for by-gone days. The missionaries built their churches near or at pagan worship sites. One of the problems in the early days was that locals in the churches would sing the pagan songs in church- this can be found among the archives of old Catholic dogmas and correspondence of the Middle Ages (I discovered some of this while researching the progression of free will offerings into mandatory tithes, which also transitioned from produce and livestock to money during this same time period - I found other interesting things as well - it's surprising what kind of laws they imposed on the people in those days). But taking into consideration the kinds of practices of those ancient people, their mating rituals, fertility rites and such, with dancing and merriment, and then comes the Church, and changes all of that. I can understand a longing to return to that which was lost, and older people returning to those places, where churches now stand, remembering the "good old days" of their youth, where they first met the loves of their lives in that "pagan" environment. I don't say that it was or is "right", but I can understand. I also understand that any semblance of returning to such practices would have been met with severe consequences by church authorities. Being older in years, they would be seen as old hags, or witches. Maybe they were witches, but I think they just missed what was gone and returned to all that was left - the place where it all happened - in the same vicinity of where the churches were established.
No. 9     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 10:32 PM     
The Church is a place where a shepherd feeds his sheep spiritually and physically with food sharing together. Catholic monasteries closely satisfy this condition. The believers support in its sustenance.

Unfortunately, Catholic churches have clergy that have usurped divinity partly by calling themselves as fathers instead of imparting divinity to others to the extent possible.

All other arrangements including house churches are social clubs. Pentecostal types help in letting off unhindered burst of emotions once in a week demeaning themselves to get some healing done temporarily.
No. 10     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 6:42 AM     
May we keep in mind ... any " gathering " of the Lord's people ... belong to Him ... even though there are imperfections ( and always will be ) ... a perfect Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is the Shepherd over them all.
No. 11     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 8:27 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

May we keep in mind ... any " gathering " of the Lord's people ... belong to Him ... even though there are imperfections ( and always will be ) ... a perfect Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is the Shepherd over them all.


Being complacent with status quo is being spiritually dead.

Matthew 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 Peter 1
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
No. 12     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 9:17 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

May we keep in mind ... any " gathering " of the Lord's people ... belong to Him ... even though there are imperfections ( and always will be ) ... a perfect Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is the Shepherd over them all.



Worth Repeating ...
No. 13     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 11:11 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

RadioPreacherMan wrote:

May we keep in mind ... any " gathering " of the Lord's people ... belong to Him ... even though there are imperfections ( and always will be ) ... a perfect Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is the Shepherd over them all.



Worth Repeating ...


Jesus Christ is no longer the Shepherd in our gatherings after His ascension. The baton was passed on to Peter who in turn has passed on to his disciples.
No. 14     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 11:29 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Jesus Christ is no longer the Shepherd in our gatherings after His ascension.



Believe however you wish to believe Dev ...

" The Lord is My Shepherd " ... is what I believe.

Okay ... moving on ...
No. 15     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 12:22 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:



Jesus Christ is no longer the Shepherd in our gatherings after His ascension. The baton was passed on to Peter who in turn has passed on to his disciples.


Once again Deva falls off the theological cliff of both reality and biblical teachings.
No. 16     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 7:28 PM     
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.
No. 17     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 8:55 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.


Right, not as a Shepherd in flesh, but as the Lord in Spirit.
No. 18     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 8:57 PM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jesus Christ is no longer the Shepherd in our gatherings after His ascension.



Believe however you wish to believe Dev ...

" The Lord is My Shepherd " ... is what I believe.

Okay ... moving on ...


But you need to move on with a shepherd right here on earth. Who can become a shepherd on this earth?
No. 19     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 11, 2017 at 8:59 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:



Jesus Christ is no longer the Shepherd in our gatherings after His ascension. The baton was passed on to Peter who in turn has passed on to his disciples.


Once again Deva falls off the theological cliff of both reality and biblical teachings.


I am up on the cliff viewing what is going on below. You need to move up, not bogged down with the past.
No. 20     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 12, 2017 at 8:43 AM     
Thank you all for your thoughts here and please do not feel slighted if I fail to respond (it is not a lack of appreciation).

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Devaprakash

Devaprakash wrote: I continue to glorify Jesus irrespective which assembly I may attend questioning the ‘ear tickling’ theories propagated in a business-like fashion for a living.


It's demonstrative displays such as is used by motivational speakers that at times I protest in my mind along side the business-like fashion. Yet, I know that humans fail, but the Lord lifts us up and does not fail.

Last Sunday (I was at a friend's Church), that Pastor made such exploratory questions of 'the Church' and the 'rituals' that ought to be questioned.

Moreover, I loved the Pastor's suggestion that 'we' are the Church and ought to be servants to one another, the community and of course foremost God. It brought up a great question in my mind ...

How can Christians 'lead' or 'represent Christ' really if we do not 'serve?'

Thanks for your thoughts.
No. 21     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 12, 2017 at 9:10 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

May we keep in mind ... any " gathering " of the Lord's people ... belong to Him ... even though there are imperfections ( and always will be ) ... a perfect Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is the Shepherd over them all.


You have touched the 'exact' context of my OP (Gathering/Church belongs to the Lord)!

The 'gathering' of 'servants' of Christ is the 'point' (I emphasize servants, although all might not be at the same level of service). So it was done by Christ and belongs to the Lord (not man). It is vital for this reason if we are to truly follow Him and His Way (not our own).

It is a solemn prayer I have today that while Christians might judge within ... that we as Christians do not do so much judging that we 'miss' the message that the Lord might desire we receive. Can there be righteousness in a preoccupation with ridicule and fault finding among "His" Servants? I witness people fail into this snare and fail to gather (and I see only 'self' righteousness when this occurs personally).

So a Church or ekklesia of 'believers' seeking to 'serve' Him, is an invention of the Lord -- (Christ sought this 'gathering' while upon the earth) and we ought to be careful in words and deeds over what is "His." (whether humans fail and have a propensity of remaining stagnant in imperfections or not ... we strive for what is greater if a servant of His Perfection)!

Thank you RPM for this post that is the 'exact' message I had upon my mind and understanding of my OP. You nailed it! :thumb_up:

No. 22     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 12, 2017 at 9:21 AM     
The missionaries built their churches near or at pagan worship sites. One of the problems in the early days was that locals in the churches would sing the pagan songs in church


Jeff -- it is unfortunate that we see so many 'pagan' practices performed by Christians or endorsed today or otherwise tolerated by the rest of us (for example Santa Claus mixed in with the story of Christ's birth).

Witchery for certain even if the folks of old were not practicing such (i think pagan worship is directly from satan).

I viewed a documentary of the many pagan religions of the world. In Hinduism, they sit and adorn bronze statues of different gods and bow to the man made statue (it reminds me of the golden calf in the Bible and it is still being practiced today). Yet, we see such 'human' kind of thinking in Christian Churches today too as for failures seen (placing power upon the actual cross over that of Christ Himself for example which I have seen in songs and stated...this example I know is splitting hairs and slight in comparison to greater errors in accurate worship of such a Great King). I myself will say the power of the cross at times (the meaning), when it is actually God Himself Who took upon suffering and taught us love so that we might live (the torturous death/cross was created by man).

Interesting additional research thoughts and I thank you for your posts.

mod typos
No. 23     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 13, 2017 at 5:45 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Thank you RPM for this post that is the 'exact' message I had upon my mind and understanding of my OP. You nailed it! :thumb_up:



It's a wonderful blessing, when we " line up " with God and each other.
No. 24     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 13, 2017 at 5:32 PM     
A point that God has been making to me recently is that our churches are to be houses of prayer.
No. 25     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Judy757   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  Oct 15, 2017 at 9:33 PM     
I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.
No. 26     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 AM     
Judy757 wrote:

I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.


Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus
No. 27     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 1:48 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.


Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus


Judy, I agree. I grew up with home Bible studies in addition to Church. We note in Scripture too that assembling was often if not daily among believers. I believe we are Spiritual family and this to is of interest and importance and ought to be practiced today among believers (the more focus on the lord, the more encouragement, the more love...the greater our joy even in the mist of a wicked and chaotic world).

I have to agree as well that the early churches still held the same problems we can see today in the assembly of Christians (those who are luke warm, imposters, non-practicing ... just look at Corith [many were practicing witchery and the leaders failed in stopping this]. Some Churches today actually scare me (their practices are pagan for example and this offers nothing to the assembly, but instead takes from it).

Thanks for your post here, Judy and Dev! <3

No. 28     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Judy757   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 2:38 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.


Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus
:exactly:
No. 29     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Judy757   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 2:50 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.


Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus


Judy, I agree. I grew up with home Bible studies in addition to Church. We note in Scripture too that assembling was often if not daily among believers. I believe we are Spiritual family and this to is of interest and importance and ought to be practiced today among believers (the more focus on the lord, the more encouragement, the more love...the greater our joy even in the mist of a wicked and chaotic world).

I have to agree as well that the early churches still held the same problems we can see today in the assembly of Christians (those who are luke warm, imposters, non-practicing ... just look at Corith [many were practicing witchery and the leaders failed in stopping this]. Some Churches today actually scare me (their practices are pagan for example and this offers nothing to the assembly, but instead takes from it).

Thanks for your post here, Judy and Dev! <3

CAsandie, you're right on the second point that so many churches today takes from the assembly. The one thing that scares me, is that political correctness is starting to come into the church. Instead of preaching God's Word, there are so many of these touchy-feely Jesus-bless-me-sermons, because "we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings" or "it's not our place to judge, and we don't want to offend anyone." I think when they get to that point, the focus on what the church should be about gets muddied up. Thanks for the encouragement on my post. I was worried at first about saying anything.
No. 30     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Judy757   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 3:02 PM     
CAsandie, I was talking to my husband about this earlier, and he gave the best definition of the church that I have ever heard: the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.
No. 31     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 3:11 PM     
Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.



Yep ... yep ... yep ! :high5:
No. 32     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Judy757   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 3:54 PM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.



Yep ... yep ... yep ! :high5:
Thanks, Radio Preacher Man!
No. 33     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 5:43 PM     
Judy wrote: political correctness is starting to come into the church.


Judy, I agree with you here as well. There is One Truth and it is the Lord's. If we understand that the Church belongs to Him (not us and certainly not the world), then it's not a matter of hurting one's feelings for rejecting sin, but encouraging all to avoid sin. :thumb_up:

I left an assembly I had been attending when I felt it was almost encouraging sin once in its desired for attendance of those engulfed in the world. While I understand desiring 'sinners' to repent and turn away from their life styles of sin and likewise learning ... there is a 'tolerance' in some gatherings that doesn't sit well with me.

Thanks for your additional posts! <3

No. 34     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 8:29 PM     
Judy757 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.


Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus
:exactly:


Unfortunately, that is not the case in almost all Protestant churches
No. 35     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Judy757   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 9:12 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.


Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus
:exactly:


Unfortunately, that is not the case in almost all Protestant churches
You're right, Dev. That's because so many have lost their focus on the true definition of the church.
No. 36     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 1:09 AM     
Judy757 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Judy757 wrote:

I find it interesting that the early church in the book of Acts clearly defined what "church" was all about. They didn't have huge houses of worship with big sanctuaries and padded pews complete with all the fuss and feathers like a Family Life Center and a coffee bar where you can make yourself a latte before going into worship (yes, there are churches that have that!). They met in each others homes and they shared their food and possessions with everyone who had a need. They had to meet in secret in order to escape persecution by the Romans. I'm not saying that they didn't have their problems because they did, but things were so simple and basic for them.


Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus
:exactly:


Unfortunately, that is not the case in almost all Protestant churches
You're right, Dev. That's because so many have lost their focus on the true definition of the church.
:high5:
No. 37     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 2:26 AM     
I would not say 'most' in any way, shape or form when speaking of Churches. Is this in the US or India, Dev?

I visit many Churches as it holds my interest. The majority that I revisit are a place to pray, worship and praise the Lord as well as fellowship...

It takes the effort of the attendees though.

No. 38     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 11:05 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:



Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus


Are you speaking of anyone specifically, or just the concept of a one-man leadership model?
No. 39     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 11:25 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

I would not say 'most' in any way, shape or form when speaking of Churches. Is this in the US or India, Dev?

I visit many Churches as it holds my interest. The majority that I revisit are a place to pray, worship and praise the Lord as well as fellowship...

It takes the effort of the attendees though.



It applies to all churches I have attended in USA (mainly Baptist background) and many denominational churches I have attended in India and continue to attend a non-denominational church now.
No. 40     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:



Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus


Are you speaking of anyone specifically, or just the concept of a one-man leadership model?


Jesus spoke of sheep without a shepherd regarding Jews of His time. A good church needs a shepherd to lead. That can be considered as branch of the kingdom of Christ in a way. It is not a question of democracy to elect a leader for a group nor elders cannot decide who should lead in a church for how long, etc. A shepherd should set up a church.
No. 41     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 12:09 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:



Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus


Are you speaking of anyone specifically, or just the concept of a one-man leadership model?


Jesus spoke of sheep without a shepherd regarding Jews of His time. A good church needs a shepherd to lead. That can be considered as branch of the kingdom of Christ in a way. It is not a question of democracy to elect a leader for a group nor elders cannot decide who should lead in a church for how long, etc. A shepherd should set up a church.


This statement is a mixture of gobblygook and truth. Though it is true enough that leadership (shepherding and shepherds) are valued in NT churches, there is NO sense in the N.T. of "a" shepherd when it comes to church leadership. N.T. churches were led by elders, not "a" shepherd, and while it was not a democracy, it WAS and IS to be plurality of leadership, ruling by consensus and with the agreement and consensus of the flock, with no one man, with all his faults, to be the 'big kahuna'.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note to all: This has been a good thread; maybe a few small inaccuracies but essentially correct, but not when it comes to DEVA's statements. I corrected him earlier and now again. If you think Deva's posts 'sound' good, please check his statements out in the light of Scripture. Deva is a long-time MC member, and a long-time preacher of 'other' doctrines, unorthodox doctrines. Keep that in mind when he posts his theological ideas. Deva does not regard the biblical books written by the Apostle Paul as inspired by God, and he is off-kilter in other areas also.
No. 42     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 12:35 PM     
I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.



Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.


I can fully agree with this.

No. 43     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM     
Thank you another for your post here.

What man can exist as a leader in Christ that will not be judged with greater scrutiny is my thoughts. I do agree that the 'gathering' of His believers is the "Lord's creation" and such is "His (as I've attempted to hi light here)," the church or gathering is not man's ... yet we see man shall judge and raise himself above another often instead of focusing on "prayer," "praising God," "assembling in fellowship with a pure heart to "worship" the Lord among others, etc.

I take to heart this scripture in knowing that what a person 'takes' and 'gives' from any assembly in "His" name can be 'Great' when our focus is upon "Him," and "His" Greatness (not our own understandings, pride or condition in the flesh).

Philippians 2:2 then make my joy complete by being of one mind, having the same love, being united in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Thank you again, Another for sharing your thoughts here (always appreciated).

No. 44     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 2:20 PM     
another84 wrote:

I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.


I would too, provided that is what he is talking about! It's usually hard to tell, when you try and nail down false teachers, for they rarely speak forthrightly...instead, they tend to skim around what they are really saying, using obfuscation and such to shade the truth and hide their own heretical beliefs.

Though in this case he also insinuated that plural leadership (elders) was not N.T. (read the book of Acts) and if done today would be defined as done by "democracy."

And this is how the false teachers work - they mix some truth with agenda-based misdirection, hoping to snare the unwary.

Don't be unwary. Be a student of Scripture.

No. 45     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 8:30 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:



Also they were led by a shepherd who was a disciple and follower of Jesus


Are you speaking of anyone specifically, or just the concept of a one-man leadership model?


Jesus spoke of sheep without a shepherd regarding Jews of His time. A good church needs a shepherd to lead. That can be considered as branch of the kingdom of Christ in a way. It is not a question of democracy to elect a leader for a group nor elders cannot decide who should lead in a church for how long, etc. A shepherd should set up a church.


SC wrote: This statement is a mixture of gobblygook and truth. Though it is true enough that leadership (shepherding and shepherds) are valued in NT churches, there is NO sense in the N.T. of "a" shepherd when it comes to church leadership. N.T. churches were led by elders, not "a" shepherd, and while it was not a democracy, it WAS and IS to be plurality of leadership, ruling by consensus and with the agreement and consensus of the flock, with no one man, with all his faults, to be the 'big kahuna'. 


SC loves too many cooks spoiling the broth! Plurality is a broth based on Paul though I doubt whether Paul really implied it. In essence it is against the practice and preaching of Jesus. So Protestant churches of today hire and fire a salaried pastor according to their whims and fancies apart from determining his salary! Are we trying to build a kingdom of Christ or just a democratic set up?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 

Note to all: This has been a good thread; maybe a few small inaccuracies but essentially correct, but not when it comes to DEVA's statements. I corrected him earlier and now again. If you think Deva's posts 'sound' good, please check his statements out in the light of Scripture. Deva is a long-time MC member, and a long-time preacher of 'other' doctrines, unorthodox doctrines. Keep that in mind when he posts his theological ideas. Deva does not regard the biblical books written by the Apostle Paul as inspired by God, and he is off-kilter in other areas also.


It is not the question of orthodox or unorthodox, rather that of truth. It is my endeavour to uphold Jesus Christ and His words. Scholarly speculations don’t sway me! I have challenged a few here to prove their cosy and comfortable concepts based on Paul using the preaching of Jesus and epistles of others. They have failed miserably. Paul-mania is dangerous. I accept Paul or any writings if they conform to the teaching of Jesus and His chosen apostles. Or at least it should be supported other sources in the light of Jesus’ words.
No. 46     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 8:37 PM     
another84 wrote:

I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.



Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.


I can fully agree with this.



As I had mentioned earlier, the Shepherd in flesh is no longer with us. Before ascension He chose Peter as His successor. Same principle should be continued for any gathering. Sheep definitely require a shepherd to lead them. That shepherd should be a disciple and follower of Jesus, not just a believer making a living out of it.
No. 47     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 8:41 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

another84 wrote:

I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.


I would too, provided that is what he is talking about! It's usually hard to tell, when you try and nail down false teachers, for they rarely speak forthrightly...instead, they tend to skim around what they are really saying, using obfuscation and such to shade the truth and hide their own heretical beliefs.

Though in this case he also insinuated that plural leadership (elders) was not N.T. (read the book of Acts) and if done today would be defined as done by "democracy."

And this is how the false teachers work - they mix some truth with agenda-based misdirection, hoping to snare the unwary.

Don't be unwary. Be a student of Scripture.


There goes SC again believing the rank outsiders rather than that of the way of Jesus.
No. 48     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 8:44 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Thank you another for your post here.

What man can exist as a leader in Christ that will not be judged with greater scrutiny is my thoughts. I do agree that the 'gathering' of His believers is the "Lord's creation" and such is "His (as I've attempted to hi light here)," the church or gathering is not man's ... yet we see man shall judge and raise himself above another often instead of focusing on "prayer," "praising God," "assembling in fellowship with a pure heart to "worship" the Lord among others, etc.

I take to heart this scripture in knowing that what a person 'takes' and 'gives' from any assembly in "His" name can be 'Great' when our focus is upon "Him," and "His" Greatness (not our own understandings, pride or condition in the flesh).

Philippians 2:2 then make my joy complete by being of one mind, having the same love, being united in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Thank you again, Another for sharing your thoughts here (always appreciated).


The church is not determined by a gathering. A house cannot become a home without a head.
No. 49     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 8:59 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

another84 wrote:

I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.



Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.


I can fully agree with this.



As I had mentioned earlier, the Shepherd in flesh is no longer with us. Before ascension He chose Peter as His successor. Same principle should be continued for any gathering. Sheep definitely require a shepherd to lead them. That shepherd should be a disciple and follower of Jesus, not just a believer making a living out of it.


Once again, false teaching. Deva's viewpoint is also that of the Catholic Church (concerning Peter) as the 'rock,' rather than the correct interpretation as it was Peter's confession, rather than Peter the man, which was what Jesus was referring to.

Again, I would encourage everyone to due their own diligence and study the Scriptures themselves, rather than believing either Stormchaser or Devaprakash. But realize that if you accept Deva's interpretation, you are being led to popery, an ungodly and false structure created by man, not God.
No. 50     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 9:28 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

 

Note to all: This has been a good thread; maybe a few small inaccuracies but essentially correct, but not when it comes to DEVA's statements. I corrected him earlier and now again. If you think Deva's posts 'sound' good, please check his statements out in the light of Scripture. Deva is a long-time MC member, and a long-time preacher of 'other' doctrines, unorthodox doctrines. Keep that in mind when he posts his theological ideas. Deva does not regard the biblical books written by the Apostle Paul as inspired by God, and he is off-kilter in other areas also.


It is not the question of orthodox or unorthodox, rather that of truth.


Ah, but it IS a question of orthodoxy. But when you encounter heretics, whether ones like Deva, or modalists, 'oneness' believers, or others, you will find them dissing orthodoxy in favor of their own cultic beliefs, which are, of course,

"The Truth."



:sick:

'Orthodoxy,' or being 'orthodox,' is a plague word to them, as somewhere down the line of years they figured out it itself meant 'truth'. That of course was unacceptable to the heretics, because if orthodoxy meant 'truth', then their own, non-orthodox views meant falseness, so they had to vilify the whole idea of truth (as represented by the word 'orthodoxy') in order to justify their own off-kilter theological beliefs, as you've just seen Deva do.

If you look up the word 'orthodoxy' on a dictionary (dictionary.com), it will merely define it as orthodox beliefs, so if you go to the root word, 'orthodox', here is what you get:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

orthodox
[awr-thuh-doks]

adjective


4. sound or correct in opinion or doctrine, especially theological or religious doctrine.

5. conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This definition is unacceptable to a heretic, hence the attempt to marginalize the word 'orthodox.'

Don't be taken in by such attempts.
No. 51     Reply: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 17, 2017 at 10:50 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

another84 wrote:

I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.



Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.


I can fully agree with this.



As I had mentioned earlier, the Shepherd in flesh is no longer with us. Before ascension He chose Peter as His successor. Same principle should be continued for any gathering. Sheep definitely require a shepherd to lead them. That shepherd should be a disciple and follower of Jesus, not just a believer making a living out of it.


Devaprakash how do you get that Jesus chose Peter as His successor?

Modified to say: Not trying to get away from the point of the thread.

Sorry Sandie.
No. 52     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 12:01 AM     
Thanks Another! I too have a question for Devaprakash...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Devaprakash: believers go to Church to worship God. Why do you suggest a 'head' is missing?

Is it because the Son is most readily shown praise over that of the Father?

If so, it is by the Father's design that all knees bow to Christ. The Trinity recognizes three persons that bear account in Heaven. JW's quarrel against the Trinity seems to lack knowledge of what the Trinity actually supports. This is not to attack any believe, but to support holding the knowledge that ALL knees will bow to Christ in time regardless of anyone's beliefs in regards to the identity of God. 1 John 4:8 says much as does Philippians as follows:.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So on modern assemblies you complain. So did Paul about the early assemblies (luke warm, etc.), yet Christ sought [not man] that we assemble. It is truly wasteful to not worship Him and focus only on fault finding (it will be a distraction from growth as the Lord would have if we believe ourselves better, to know more, to be above other believers.

It is with humbleness and a contrite heart and our weaknesses that we are received in which to give Glory to Him (not our beliefs of superiority over others which is not true fellowship in Christ that Christ desired for us).

I am glad to hear though you do not forsake attending local assemblies/Churches despite accusations stated here.


No. 53     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 12:35 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

another84 wrote:

I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.



Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.


I can fully agree with this.



As I had mentioned earlier, the Shepherd in flesh is no longer with us. Before ascension He chose Peter as His successor. Same principle should be continued for any gathering. Sheep definitely require a shepherd to lead them. That shepherd should be a disciple and follower of Jesus, not just a believer making a living out of it.


SC wrote: Once again, false teaching. Deva's viewpoint is also that of the Catholic Church (concerning Peter) as the 'rock,' rather than the correct interpretation as it was Peter's confession, rather than Peter the man, which was what Jesus was referring to.


Catholic church is right in enforcing celibate man for the full time ministry. Besides Peter's confession, he was the one who was asked to take care of the sheep after Jesus' departure. That is the solid way, not a virtual reality based on mere statement.

Again, I would encourage everyone to due their own diligence and study the Scriptures themselves, rather than believing either Stormchaser or Devaprakash. But realize that if you accept Deva's interpretation, you are being led to popery, an ungodly and false structure created by man, not God.


Canon is man-made. That is why we have different versions for different groups! Jesus' words are final. Appendix cannot alter that.

No. 54     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 12:44 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

 

Note to all: This has been a good thread; maybe a few small inaccuracies but essentially correct, but not when it comes to DEVA's statements. I corrected him earlier and now again. If you think Deva's posts 'sound' good, please check his statements out in the light of Scripture. Deva is a long-time MC member, and a long-time preacher of 'other' doctrines, unorthodox doctrines. Keep that in mind when he posts his theological ideas. Deva does not regard the biblical books written by the Apostle Paul as inspired by God, and he is off-kilter in other areas also.


It is not the question of orthodox or unorthodox, rather that of truth.


Ah, but it IS a question of orthodoxy. But when you encounter heretics, whether ones like Deva, or modalists, 'oneness' believers, or others, you will find them dissing orthodoxy in favor of their own cultic beliefs, which are, of course,

"The Truth."



:sick:

'Orthodoxy,' or being 'orthodox,' is a plague word to them, as somewhere down the line of years they figured out it itself meant 'truth'. That of course was unacceptable to the heretics, because if orthodoxy meant 'truth', then their own, non-orthodox views meant falseness, so they had to vilify the whole idea of truth (as represented by the word 'orthodoxy') in order to justify their own off-kilter theological beliefs, as you've just seen Deva do.

If you look up the word 'orthodoxy' on a dictionary (dictionary.com), it will merely define it as orthodox beliefs, so if you go to the root word, 'orthodox', here is what you get:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

orthodox
[awr-thuh-doks]

adjective


4. sound or correct in opinion or doctrine, especially theological or religious doctrine.

5. conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This definition is unacceptable to a heretic, hence the attempt to marginalize the word 'orthodox.'

Don't be taken in by such attempts.


So your refuge for spiritual meaning is a dictionary! :no-no:

Which was the early church? I believe in Apostles Creed, not politically motivated Nicene Creed. Jerusalem Church did not have please-all scrolls of Paul meant for ungodly Gentiles. Apostle Thomas did not carry a bundle of Paul's letters to India! He brought only the gospel by Matthew.
No. 55     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 1:03 AM     
another84 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

another84 wrote:

I have to agree with Devaprakash a shepherd should set up a church. As long as that shepherd is Jesus.



Judy757 wrote:

the assemblage of all believers in the Lord Jesus past,present and future who are part of His body.


I can fully agree with this.



As I had mentioned earlier, the Shepherd in flesh is no longer with us. Before ascension He chose Peter as His successor. Same principle should be continued for any gathering. Sheep definitely require a shepherd to lead them. That shepherd should be a disciple and follower of Jesus, not just a believer making a living out of it.


Devaprakash how do you get that Jesus chose Peter as His successor?

Modified to say: Not trying to get away from the point of the thread.

Sorry Sandie.


It is Peter-galore in the gospel books. He was the first to confess Jesus as the Messiah and having words of eternal life. He was the only one to follow Jesus in spite of danger of losing life when others ran away when Jesus was led to the cross.

John 21: 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


Is there any doubt of Peter bearing the responsibility of carrying on the ministry in the physical absence of the Lord? It is further evidenced by the book of Acts.
No. 56     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 1:22 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Devaprakash: believers go to Church to worship God. Why do you suggest a 'head' is missing?


Head of church is Christ and Head of Christ is God the Father, yet we need a physical head to lead the sheep in continuation of the earthly ministry of Jesus in His physical absence.

Is it because the Son is most readily shown praise over that of the Father?[


That is blasphemy! God is Father of Jesus and also of us.

If so, it is by the Father's design that all knees bow to Christ. The Trinity recognizes three persons that bear account in Heaven. JW's quarrel against the Trinity seems to lack knowledge of what the Trinity actually supports. This is not to attack any believe, but to support holding the knowledge that ALL knees will bow to Christ in time regardless of anyone's beliefs in regards to the identity of God. 1 John 4:8 says much as does Philippians as follows:.


We bow our knees to Christ as the Son of God, not God Himself.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


God did not exalt Jesus above Himself. And see above that are made bold and underlined.

So on modern assemblies you complain. So did Paul about the early assemblies (luke warm, etc.), yet Christ sought [not man] that we assemble. It is truly wasteful to not worship Him and focus only on fault finding (it will be a distraction from growth as the Lord would have if we believe ourselves better, to know more, to be above other believers.



Even Paul did not depict Jesus as God. Whereas politically instigated Nicene Creed does!

It is with humbleness and a contrite heart and our weaknesses that we are received in which to give Glory to Him (not our beliefs of superiority over others which is not true fellowship in Christ that Christ desired for us).


You cannot send God the Father to the sidelines and bring Paul to replace Jesus.

I am glad to hear though you do not forsake attending local assemblies/Churches despite accusations stated here.


It is like being in the MC swimming against the tide for the sake of glorifying the Father and the Son, so also in other Christian websites.


No. 57     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 10:28 AM     

Devaprakash --

confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

I think you need to pray upon and seek greater discernment upon this part of the scripture.

John 1:27 He is the One who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals” I am not worthy to untie.

Along side a later scripture in John:

John 1:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” 31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him.

It was the Pharisees that suggested the Lord Jesus was guilty of Blasphemy and thought to stone the Lord!

And 1 John:

1 John 1:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It is well known that I support the God Head moreover the Trinity Doctrine, but what does it matter? What you learned from the JW's? Every knee shall bow ... it is the Father's Will! The JW's will bow before Jesus too upon Judgement Day. It is then that they and you will see His Amazing saving Grace and a determination will be made if 'works' shall save either.

I say this not to argue, but in all sincerity as a matter of faith. No Christian Church worships Paul. None. Paul would be the first to say, never shall it be so! Your belief is set though as you discuss Paul in great obsession (far beyond even Churches).

That is not the normal Christian focus which is upon Christ and the Father where ALL Glory is given (just as it was given through Paul who laid his life down for Christ). If you suggest yourself better (since you judge Paul) then this is for the Lord to deal with (not me).

On my part, the side discussion about your repeated accusations against the Church, Paul, Jews (your feelings) is over for myself and I am returning to OP topic. Thanks.

No. 58     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 11:06 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

May we keep in mind ... any " gathering " of the Lord's people ... belongs to Him ... even though there are imperfections ( and always will be ) ... a perfect Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is the Shepherd over them all.


Bringing the main point of the OP up again that RPM stated wonderfully!

:2thumbs:



No. 59     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 11:12 AM     
CAsandie wrote:


Devaprakash --

confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

I think you need to pray upon and seek greater discernment upon this part of the scripture.

John 1:27 He is the One who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals” I am not worthy to untie.

Along side a later scripture in John:

John 1:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” 31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him.

It was the Pharisees that suggested the Lord Jesus was guilty of Blasphemy and thought to stone the Lord!

And 1 John:

1 John 1:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It is well known that I support the God Head moreover the Trinity Doctrine, but what does it matter? What you learned from the JW's? Every knee shall bow ... it is the Father's Will! The JW's will bow before Jesus too upon Judgement Day. It is then that they and you will see His Amazing saving Grace and a determination will be made if 'works' shall save either.

I say this not to argue, but in all sincerity as a matter of faith. No Christian Church worships Paul. None. Paul would be the first to say, never shall it be so! Your belief is set though as you discuss Paul in great obsession (far beyond even Churches).

That is not the normal Christian focus which is upon Christ and the Father where ALL Glory is given (just as it was given through Paul who laid his life down for Christ). If you suggest yourself better (since you judge Paul) then this is for the Lord to deal with (not me).

On my part, the side discussion about your repeated accusations against the Church, Paul, Jews (your feelings) is over for myself and I am returning to OP topic. Thanks.


Very shallow defense of the brainwashed stuff! Sorry, you are returning to what--you know!
No. 60     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 1:08 PM     
Dev -- You are sorry that I am returning to the topic of this thread over that of your posts? Insults will not change my lack of interest in quarreling at this time. Be at peace!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The OP's point is the reveal the following: Christ sought that believers assembled and created the Church (it is His/not man's and a place of prayer, worship and fellowship).

This assembly is for encouragement (especially as the end comes sooner). If any of us desires to only find faults, then there is no "faith filled" (recall faith is in what is not seen) assembly as the Lord sought for His.

Hebrew 10:23 Let us hold resolutely to the hope we confess, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds. 25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

No. 61     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 5:53 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

This definition is unacceptable to a heretic, hence the attempt to marginalize the word 'orthodox.'

Don't be taken in by such attempts.


So your refuge for spiritual meaning is a dictionary! :no-no:


Really? So if I call you an idiot, you shouldn't be offended right...since you don't accept dictionary definitions?

And for everyone else following this, remember what I said about heretics not accepting the dictionary definition of orthodox? My point has just been proven.


Which was the early church? I believe in Apostles Creed, not politically motivated Nicene Creed.


Once again, my point is made. Heretics do not accept proven Church creeds - the creeds, that is, that expose them for what they are.
No. 62     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 8:38 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

This definition is unacceptable to a heretic, hence the attempt to marginalize the word 'orthodox.'

Don't be taken in by such attempts.


So your refuge for spiritual meaning is a dictionary! :no-no:


Really? So if I call you an idiot, you shouldn't be offended right...since you don't accept dictionary definitions?


That is purely idiotic logic. I am surprised at your abyss of intelligence! :naanaa:

And for everyone else following this, remember what I said about heretics not accepting the dictionary definition of orthodox? My point has just been proven.


That will be accepted unanimously in a assembly of naive people! :BlahBlah:

Deva wrote:

Which was the early church? I believe in Apostles Creed, not politically motivated Nicene Creed.


Once again, my point is made. Heretics do not accept proven Church creeds - the creeds, that is, that expose them for what they are.


Are you a Catholic in the garb of a Protestant? Good show! I have shown your true color!:Hole: :sick:
No. 63     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 18, 2017 at 8:42 PM     
CAsandie wrote:
Hebrew 10:23 Let us hold resolutely to the hope we confess, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds. 25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.


Headless meetings, no wonder lead to spiritual chaos! You don't know what you are talking about!:headbang:
No. 64     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 19, 2017 at 10:31 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [Ekklesian]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church[Ekklesia]n and gave Himself up for her


Interlinear translations of the scriptures above and the meaning of the work "ekklesia" or "Ecclesia" follows:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/5-25.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/16-18.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/ekkle_sian_1577.htm

Ecclesia (or Ekklesia) in Christian theology means both: a particular body of faithful people, and the whole body of the faithful. Latin ecclesia, from Greek ekklesia had an original meaning of "assembly, congregation, council", literally "convocation".


con·vo·ca·tion
ˌkänvəˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun noun: convocation; plural noun: convocations

1. a large formal assembly of people.
North American
a formal ceremony at a college or university, as for the conferring of awards.
synonyms: assembly, gathering, meeting, conference, convention, congress, council, symposium, colloquium, conclave, synod
"a convocation of church leaders"
2. the action of calling people together for a large formal assembly.


Members of the ekklesia, the church, have been literally "called out" of the world (in Greek ekklesia is related to kaleo, "to call") in order to live free of its dictates and to belong fully, at every moment, to God and to one another.


Where did the name "church" come from? English is a Germanic language (it evolved from German). Here is the word "church's" origin. Today it is Kerche in German which means "belonging to the Lord". It's origin follows:

From Middle High German kirche, from Old High German chirihha, an early borrowing from Ancient Greek κυριακόν (kuriakón). Compare Dutch kerk, English church.


From Middle English chirche, from Old English ċiriċe (“church”), from Proto-Germanic *kirikǭ, an early borrowing of Ancient Greek κυριακόν (kuriakón), neuter form of κυριακός (kuriakós, “belonging to the lord”), from κύριος (kúrios, “ruler, lord”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱēw-, *ḱwā- (“to swell, spread out, be strong ...



So Church is this: It is not a building, not a denomination, not a pastorship ... but an assembly of people who have been called out that belong to the Lord.

I Have truly disliked all the inaccurate 'teachings' 'against' Church here on MC, so I thought I'd offer the actual definition for anyone who might consider why I might defend the Church. Despite the negativity and generalization about 'churches' (mostly online) today, I have joy to see the Church flourishing (the 'gathering' of His) in meeting the last prophecy to be fulfilled (the spreading of the Gospel to all).

Have you received your calling?

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.



Quoting the topic again here for those interested in the OP topic.

Thanks!

No. 65     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 19, 2017 at 10:58 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church [Ekklesian]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church[Ekklesia]n and gave Himself up for her


Interlinear translations of the scriptures above and the meaning of the work "ekklesia" or "Ecclesia" follows:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/5-25.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/16-18.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/ekkle_sian_1577.htm

Ecclesia (or Ekklesia) in Christian theology means both: a particular body of faithful people, and the whole body of the faithful. Latin ecclesia, from Greek ekklesia had an original meaning of "assembly, congregation, council", literally "convocation".


con·vo·ca·tion
ˌkänvəˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun noun: convocation; plural noun: convocations

1. a large formal assembly of people.
North American
a formal ceremony at a college or university, as for the conferring of awards.
synonyms: assembly, gathering, meeting, conference, convention, congress, council, symposium, colloquium, conclave, synod
"a convocation of church leaders"
2. the action of calling people together for a large formal assembly.


Members of the ekklesia, the church, have been literally "called out" of the world (in Greek ekklesia is related to kaleo, "to call") in order to live free of its dictates and to belong fully, at every moment, to God and to one another.


Where did the name "church" come from? English is a Germanic language (it evolved from German). Here is the word "church's" origin. Today it is Kerche in German which means "belonging to the Lord". It's origin follows:

From Middle High German kirche, from Old High German chirihha, an early borrowing from Ancient Greek κυριακόν (kuriakón). Compare Dutch kerk, English church.


From Middle English chirche, from Old English ċiriċe (“church”), from Proto-Germanic *kirikǭ, an early borrowing of Ancient Greek κυριακόν (kuriakón), neuter form of κυριακός (kuriakós, “belonging to the lord”), from κύριος (kúrios, “ruler, lord”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱēw-, *ḱwā- (“to swell, spread out, be strong ...



So Church is this: It is not a building, not a denomination, not a pastorship ... but an assembly of people who have been called out that belong to the Lord.

I Have truly disliked all the inaccurate 'teachings' 'against' Church here on MC, so I thought I'd offer the actual definition for anyone who might consider why I might defend the Church. Despite the negativity and generalization about 'churches' (mostly online) today, I have joy to see the Church flourishing (the 'gathering' of His) in meeting the last prophecy to be fulfilled (the spreading of the Gospel to all).

Have you received your calling?

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.



Quoting the topic again here for those interested in the OP topic.

Thanks!



It is better to change the title of the thread in that case.
No. 66     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 19, 2017 at 11:10 AM     

Devaprakash -- I know you are quarreling here (but I have not degraded you, nor am I quarreling with you here). Maybe you can go back to your original post here in this thread for which I will pose another question to you...

CAsandie wrote: Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Devaprakash wrote: This helped me to associate with a local non-denominational church since no church is perfect. I continue to glorify Jesus irrespective which assembly I may attend questioning the ‘ear tickling’ theories propagated in a business-like fashion for a living.


I am glad you do attend in India. If so, do you face persecution? I hear persecution in India is quite severe against Christians.

mod clarity
No. 67     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 19, 2017 at 7:55 PM     
CAsandie wrote:


Devaprakash -- I know you are quarreling here (but I have not degraded you, nor am I quarreling with you here). Maybe you can go back to your original post here in this thread for which I will pose another question to you...

CAsandie wrote: Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Devaprakash wrote: This helped me to associate with a local non-denominational church since no church is perfect. I continue to glorify Jesus irrespective which assembly I may attend questioning the ‘ear tickling’ theories propagated in a business-like fashion for a living.


I am glad you do attend in India. If so, do you face persecution? I hear persecution in India is quite severe against Christians.

mod clarity


I know you have the typical tendency of Protestants to look for people who agree with your view point, not necessarily from the point of knowing the truth! That leads to 'birds of the same feather flocking together' with typical pecking at others, infighting, divisions and so on.

There is no persecution at our place though we are looked down by Hindus, who are very conservatives and traditionalists, and as people of questionable morals. They think Christianity is about 'Dating (not prevalent in India to a great extent--mostly arranged marriages), drinking, dining, dancing and divorce (fast picking up in India too)'!

It especially hurts us who belonged the top priestly caste of Hinduism.

No. 68     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 20, 2017 at 2:21 PM     
Devaprakash wrote: They think Christianity is about 'Dating (not prevalent in India to a great extent--mostly arranged marriages), drinking, dining, dancing and divorce (fast picking up in India too)'!


Yes, you have stated this as your feelings here in threads too. I think the practice of arranged marriage is much different than dating. I do not know Christians who engage in drunkenness personally (I've seen some slide and come back). Dancing need not be sinful though...

Psalm 149:3 3Let them praise His name with dancing; Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre. 4For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the afflicted ones with salvation.

I've never got into dancing myself though as an overly reserved person (and I agree some dancing in the US and other countries is highly inappropriate. I am thankful I never developed an affection for drinking alcohol [I didn't for dating either for that matter]. So I do no argue with you here.

Dining though is enjoyable with friends and family and I enjoy cooking healthy meals.

I agree it is sad divorce is so prevalent in the world and in the US. India definitely does have lower divorce rates.

None of that though defines the Lord's assembly (it's individual errors) or the Church in the US or abroad. It's easy to find fault in man, but "impossible" to find fault in the Lord.

God Bless you Devaprakash and I am glad but surprised to hear that you do not face the grave persecution that some of my fellow Christians in India do (I've heard devastating stories from others).

No. 69     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 20, 2017 at 8:34 PM     
CAsandie wrote:
Psalm 149:3 3Let them praise His name with dancing; Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre. 4For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the afflicted ones with salvation.


The above condition is never found in social dancing. They dance to please either their partner or the audience.

In one Pentecostal based church in India, I found the pastor dancing with his second wife to celebrate his birthday uttering gibberish frequently to amuse his audience (deluded congregation)! One of his lady crony was defending this saying that David also danced before the Ark of the Covenant! The audience applauded with clapping their hands and whistling! :tongue:

That stupid woman did not know that David was doing it before the Ark, not to please cheaply the spectators. That was his expression of spontaneous joy!
No. 70     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 21, 2017 at 11:29 AM     
Deva -- In India, the believers there suggest one can have more than one wife despite the NT instruction?

I've seen some assemblies demonstrating chaos on youtube, but have never attended any Churches that were not orderly or acting outside of Scripture (I would have left the Church you attended).

I am sure you too did not return to that Church!

Worship and true belief is by obedience.





No. 71     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Deva -- In India, the believers there suggest one can have more than one wife despite the NT instruction?

I've seen some assemblies demonstrating chaos on youtube, but have never attended any Churches that were not orderly or acting outside of Scripture (I would have left the Church you attended).

I am sure you too did not return to that Church!

Worship and true belief is by obedience.


Many have affairs with others even after marriage (adultery or otherwise). Have you ever attended a Pentecostal based church?





No. 72     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 21, 2017 at 8:20 PM     
Dev -- No I haven't been to a Pentecostal Church.

I had an Aunt that was Pentecostal though and she lived to 99 years old. She was healed of skin cancer without traditional medicine (just prayer). She was also self sufficient until the day she passed.

Her husband passed 30 years before her (around the time she quit smoking after 30 years of smoking), but she never remarried. A truly remarkable and blessed woman who I admired greatly!

She was my Native American Grandfather's twin.

No. 73     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 22, 2017 at 4:28 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Dev -- No I haven't been to a Pentecostal Church.

I had an Aunt that was Pentecostal though and she lived to 99 years old. She was healed of skin cancer without traditional medicine (just prayer). She was also self sufficient until the day she passed.

Her husband passed 30 years before her (around the time she quit smoking after 30 years of smoking), but she never remarried. A truly remarkable and blessed woman who I admired greatly!

She was my Native American Grandfather's twin.


It is time to attend one. However, beware, your service may get interrupted by police for making lewd noise with complaints from neighbors! Or you may rush out from it hearing blasphemous words as did a German lady who attended an English church only to find people sounding such words in German without being aware of.

Healing is nothing to do with salvation. I am prepared to undergo any kind of pain due to sickness or prepared to die, but will not invite a Pentecostal person to pray for me even if he had record of healing people. I will not allow persons who demean our God with their animal sounds and acrobatics to help me in whatever manner with their funny and nonsensical utterances and prayers! :naanaa:
No. 74     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 22, 2017 at 9:42 AM     
Dev -- I have no knowledge of your experiences, but my Aunt only spoke in English that I was aware of and was sane (no animal noises).

As far as healing though, I'd hope you sought God first even prior to homeopathic or traditional medicine. He does heal still today.

I think you are speaking of kundalini that started in Toronto Canada and has crept across the globe. I too remain away from that. I've created threads warning against such. Not on topic here, but thanks for your thoughts. Yes, it's easy to find fault in Churches, but the assembling of believers was created by the Lord.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Those who have contributed to this thread --

I just want to thank everyone for their thoughts here. I'm up early to visit a new Church that starts early (with a friend).

Hope everyone is enjoying the weekend and again thanks for your thoughts. :hug:

No. 75     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 22, 2017 at 11:17 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Dev -- I have no knowledge of your experiences, but my Aunt only spoke in English that I was aware of and was sane (no animal noises).


Pentecostal churches vary in degree and depth in degrading stuff!

As far as healing though, I'd hope you sought God first even prior to homeopathic or traditional medicine. He does heal still today.


I keep saying to my family that it is God who heals, may be through a doctor or otherwise.

I think you are speaking of kundalini that started in Toronto Canada and has crept across the globe. I too remain away from that. I've created threads warning against such. Not on topic here, but thanks for your thoughts. Yes, it's easy to find fault in Churches,


Kundalini is thousands of years old. The insane behavior in Pentecostal churches is about one hundred years old.

but the assembling of believers was created by the Lord.


It is like saying sheep was created by God. It doesn't amount to anything spiritual.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

No. 76     Reply: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Survivor698   Gender: M   Age: 103   on  Oct 22, 2017 at 12:29 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

So Church is... an assembly of people...


I was about to post such and make this point, when I finally more thoroughly read and seen that you adequately covered it.

Yes, there are a lot of inaccurate opinions shared here on MC concerning church that are not Biblical in the slightest. The scriptures are taken out of context and twisted to state something totally different than the actual message shared in God's Word concerning church.

Those that do not know, would do best to say/post nothing related to church.
No. 77     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 22, 2017 at 8:19 PM     
Survivor698 wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

So Church is... an assembly of people...


I was about to post such and make this point, when I finally more thoroughly read and seen that you adequately covered it.

Yes, there are a lot of inaccurate opinions shared here on MC concerning church that are not Biblical in the slightest. The scriptures are taken out of context and twisted to state something totally different than the actual message shared in God's Word concerning church.

Those that do not know, would do best to say/post nothing related to church.


Our understanding of a church should be based on what is found in the Gospel books not simply based what is found in the canon.
No. 78     Reply: Re: Re: The definition of Church   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 23, 2017 at 10:43 AM     
Survivor698 wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

So Church is... an assembly of people...


I was about to post such and make this point, when I finally more thoroughly read and seen that you adequately covered it.

Yes, there are a lot of inaccurate opinions shared here on MC concerning church that are not Biblical in the slightest. The scriptures are taken out of context and twisted to state something totally different than the actual message shared in God's Word concerning church.

Those that do not know, would do best to say/post nothing related to church.


Survivor -- Thank you!

Yes, I agree. Since the idea of assembly is by the Lord Himself. It is sad to say that some are so caught up in their human pride and self righteousness that they might never have fellowship or understand the true purpose of the same.

I finally understand why Dr. Jeremiah of Shadow Mountain (a Church I attended for years) is trying to break down denominational divisions and I want to offer something the Lord has taught His Disciples for those that might be reading and might have understanding:

Luke 9:49“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” 50“Do not stop him, Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Mark 9:39But Jesus replied, “Do not stop him. No one who performs a miracle in My name can turn around and speak evil of Me. 40For whoever is not against us is for us. 41Indeed, if anyone gives you even a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ, truly I tell you, he will never lose his reward.

Leading to an often misinterpreted scripture that is actually parallel:

Matthew 12:27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house. 30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.



What good works I see and cherish among believers. Yesterday at a new Church that a friend and I attended, there was a food ministry. There was so much food that it was too much to give away! If assemblies worked together (despite denomination and slight theological differences) -- we would see less waste (both in one's mind as well as in effort).



Thanks again for your post, Survivor, I also see those who forsake the assembling and those who primarily 'complain' and place themselves above all others ... most certain are missing out (and that is sad. Do they believe that the Lord does not look after His and in His Greatness and Power and Protection that they should fear man? I don't know. It would appear to be weak faith though and self reliance of knowledge and wisdom [true wisdom can come from the Lord Himself]).