MeetChristians.com Tour

Private
Mailbox

Quick
Search

Detailed
Search

Member
Forums

Live
Chat

Polls
space

User
Tools

Help
space

Log Off
space
MeetChristians.com / Forums / Biblical & Theological Issues

No. 0     Original Topic:  Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 8:05 AM   Viewed 1937 times     
Everything in between these two statements MUST be taken within the context OF these two statements"


Hebrews 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit. 

Hebrews 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 


That IF is HUGE. Because after that IF, we then proceed to what is IMPOSSIBLE. After that IF, after that IMPOSSIBILITY of repentance, we then get to "THOUGH THUS WE SPEAK."

It is all hypothetical.
No. 1     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 8:42 AM     
:exactly:

A great break down of the verse for comprehension!

Thank you Jeff!



No. 2     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 11:59 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Everything in between these two statements MUST be taken within the context OF these two statements"


Hebrews 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit. 

Hebrews 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 


That IF is HUGE. Because after that IF, we then proceed to what is IMPOSSIBLE. After that IF, after that IMPOSSIBILITY of repentance, we then get to "THOUGH THUS WE SPEAK."

It is all hypothetical.


It would seem the "and" in verse three would be the conjunction back to verses before it.



Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

(Let us get past the basics and into some deep stuff.)

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

(This is what we are going to get into)

Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

(And this will we do, if God permit.)

Then verse four would seem to be the the start of the lesson.

Why do you see it as hypothetical?
And what difference does it make?
Thanks
No. 3     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 12:25 PM     
Hebrews 6:9

New International Version
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation.

New Living Translation
Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don't believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation.

English Standard Version
Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

Berean Study Bible
Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case--of things that accompany salvation.

Berean Literal Bible
But even if we speak like this, beloved, we are persuaded of better things concerning you, and things accompanying salvation.

New American Standard Bible
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

King James Bible
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Even though we are speaking this way, dear friends, in your case we are confident of the better things connected with salvation.

International Standard Version
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case, things that point to salvation.

NET Bible
But in your case, dear friends, even though we speak like this, we are convinced of better things relating to salvation.

New Heart English Bible
But, beloved, we are persuaded of better things for you, and things that accompany salvation, even though we speak like this.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But we are persuaded concerning you, my brethren, those things that are excellent and that accompany life, even though we speak in this way.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Dear friends, even though we say these things, we are still convinced that better things are in store for you and that they will save you.

New American Standard 1977
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But, beloved, we expect better things than these of you, things near unto saving health, though we thus speak.

King James 2000 Bible
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

American King James Version
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

American Standard Version
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But, my dearly beloved, we trust better things of you, and nearer to salvation; though we speak thus.

Darby Bible Translation
But we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things, and connected with salvation, even if we speak thus.

English Revised Version
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

Webster's Bible Translation
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Weymouth New Testament
But we, even while we speak in this tone, have a happier conviction concerning you, my dearly-loved friends--a conviction of things which point towards salvation.

World English Bible
But, beloved, we are persuaded of better things for you, and things that accompany salvation, even though we speak like this.

Young's Literal Translation
and we are persuaded, concerning you, beloved, the things that are better, and accompanying salvation, though even thus we speak,


Does the conjunction in verse nine have to do with what was before, or coming next?
No. 4     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 8:03 PM     
another84 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Everything in between these two statements MUST be taken within the context OF these two statements"


Hebrews 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit. 

Hebrews 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 


That IF is HUGE. Because after that IF, we then proceed to what is IMPOSSIBLE. After that IF, after that IMPOSSIBILITY of repentance, we then get to "THOUGH THUS WE SPEAK."

It is all hypothetical.


It would seem the "and" in verse three would be the conjunction back to verses before it.


But then you have to go to everything even before that, because of verse 1.

Hebrews 6:1  Therefore

So now we're in chapter 5, which is a continuation of chapter 4. The movement from chapter 4 and into chapter 5 demonstrates the superiority of Christ's priesthood over that of Aaron and the Levitical priesthood. Chapter 7 continues this thought while building momentum, strengthening the argument. Chapter 6 is in the middle of this greater context which speaks to the superiority of Jesus over the priesthood of Israel.

The transition, or break from that context begins in Chapter 5. We will examine the point of departure.

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.


The Author (as the name of the human author is in dispute, I chose to capitalize the word, Author, to indicate the Source behind the individual writer) had been addressing Christ as high priest in comparison to the priesthood under the former covenant which was mediated by Moses (or the Old Covenant). He then takes a turn in subject matter, an "aside" if you will, to confront the lack of spiritual development in His audience.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


The frustration of the Author is visible here. He will return to the subject at hand (in chapter 7), but presently senses a need to address the problem of disciples who are not growing. That lesson is always needed as the churches are filled with spiritual babies. Rather than living bodies of Christ, churches are more like nurseries for spiritual infants.

So we now come to chapter 6 and closer to those burning words.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.


Chapter 6 begins with a Therefore. So we are directed to what we just read to understand what is about to be stated. The recipients of the letter had just been rebuked for not developing spiritually. Enough time had elapsed (according to the Author) that they ought to have developed to maturity. They were still babies feeding on spiritual milk. He tells them it is high time for some substantial spiritual food. And THEREFORE, as this chapter begins, there are some things they needed to leave behind so that they could continue toward perfection.

The foundation had already been laid. Once the foundation is laid, it is time to build on it, not lay the foundation all over again. So they are instructed to move toward perfection (or completeness as Strong's Greek dictionary has it).

The statement that follows begins with an if: And this we will do, if God permit. The condition of continuing toward perfection rests on God's permission. The if in verse 3 is exactly what it is, an if.

Since it is God's will that we do continue toward perfection, He will not let us down as we attempt to do so, since He is also the One who is at work in us to do His good will. The if in the passage is almost a joke. The impossibility of the entire topic lies not in our inability to repent again, but with an idea of God not permitting us to move on to perfection when it is His will that we do just that.

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

On this side of the IF, we are now in the realm of the hypothetical. So now comes the hypothetical impossible repentance:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


The hypothetical aspect begins at the if of God's permissive will. Anyone who knows Scripture also knows full well that it is already impossible for anyone to repent outside of God's permission. This is evident throughout Scripture. In fact, it is God who grants repentance.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2nd Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


It is impossible, without God, to repent at all.

The illustration of the earth and its produce demonstrates two results of receiving the rain: one of blessing and the other of cursing (or near to cursing, to be more accurate).

Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


The burning of verse 8 can fall into another discussion, which would also bring in 1st Corinthians 3:13-15, on testing what one builds on his/her foundation (the foundation is Christ). The fire tests the individual's work. If it is of lasting value, the person is rewarded. If it is burned, there will be loss, yet the individual still abides as saved.

The verse following is reassuring.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So after all of this horror (as some have interpreted it), we are again reassured of our solid standing in Christ by the persuasion of those who wrote this epistle. That persuasion comes with acknowledgement of expecting those things that accompany salvation. It ends with that little phrase, though we thus speak.

It is evident from that little phrase that they were thus speaking in a way that is different from what is expected. So the passage in question begins with an if, and ends with a but. After that, we are told that what was written is indeed different from the norm: though we thus speak. This passage is not what it seems on the surface, and does not speak contrary to the rest of Scripture to the loss of salvation.

And as the chapter moves to return to the subject at hand, the priesthood of Jesus Christ, the assurance of eternal security is solidified.

Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


And later in Hebrews we get to this gem:

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Perfected for all time, yet being sanctified. Your feelings may tell you otherwise, people who misread Scripture may tell you otherwise, Satan will tell you otherwise, - But in Christ, you have already been perfected for all time - forever - even though now, in time, you are being made holy (being sanctified).
No. 5     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 11:31 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

another84 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Everything in between these two statements MUST be taken within the context OF these two statements"


Hebrews 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit. 

Hebrews 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 


That IF is HUGE. Because after that IF, we then proceed to what is IMPOSSIBLE. After that IF, after that IMPOSSIBILITY of repentance, we then get to "THOUGH THUS WE SPEAK."

It is all hypothetical.


It would seem the "and" in verse three would be the conjunction back to verses before it.


But then you have to go to everything even before that, because of verse 1.

Hebrews 6:1  Therefore

So now we're in chapter 5, which is a continuation of chapter 4. The movement from chapter 4 and into chapter 5 demonstrates the superiority of Christ's priesthood over that of Aaron and the Levitical priesthood. Chapter 7 continues this thought while building momentum, strengthening the argument. Chapter 6 is in the middle of this greater context which speaks to the superiority of Jesus over the priesthood of Israel.

The transition, or break from that context begins in Chapter 5. We will examine the point of departure.

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.


The Author (as the name of the human author is in dispute, I chose to capitalize the word, Author, to indicate the Source behind the individual writer) had been addressing Christ as high priest in comparison to the priesthood under the former covenant which was mediated by Moses (or the Old Covenant). He then takes a turn in subject matter, an "aside" if you will, to confront the lack of spiritual development in His audience.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


The frustration of the Author is visible here. He will return to the subject at hand (in chapter 7), but presently senses a need to address the problem of disciples who are not growing. That lesson is always needed as the churches are filled with spiritual babies. Rather than living bodies of Christ, churches are more like nurseries for spiritual infants.

So we now come to chapter 6 and closer to those burning words.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.


Chapter 6 begins with a Therefore. So we are directed to what we just read to understand what is about to be stated. The recipients of the letter had just been rebuked for not developing spiritually. Enough time had elapsed (according to the Author) that they ought to have developed to maturity. They were still babies feeding on spiritual milk. He tells them it is high time for some substantial spiritual food. And THEREFORE, as this chapter begins, there are some things they needed to leave behind so that they could continue toward perfection.

The foundation had already been laid. Once the foundation is laid, it is time to build on it, not lay the foundation all over again. So they are instructed to move toward perfection (or completeness as Strong's Greek dictionary has it).

The statement that follows begins with an if: And this we will do, if God permit. The condition of continuing toward perfection rests on God's permission. The if in verse 3 is exactly what it is, an if.

Since it is God's will that we do continue toward perfection, He will not let us down as we attempt to do so, since He is also the One who is at work in us to do His good will. The if in the passage is almost a joke. The impossibility of the entire topic lies not in our inability to repent again, but with an idea of God not permitting us to move on to perfection when it is His will that we do just that.

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

On this side of the IF, we are now in the realm of the hypothetical. So now comes the hypothetical impossible repentance:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


The hypothetical aspect begins at the if of God's permissive will. Anyone who knows Scripture also knows full well that it is already impossible for anyone to repent outside of God's permission. This is evident throughout Scripture. In fact, it is God who grants repentance.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2nd Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


It is impossible, without God, to repent at all.

The illustration of the earth and its produce demonstrates two results of receiving the rain: one of blessing and the other of cursing (or near to cursing, to be more accurate).

Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


The burning of verse 8 can fall into another discussion, which would also bring in 1st Corinthians 3:13-15, on testing what one builds on his/her foundation (the foundation is Christ). The fire tests the individual's work. If it is of lasting value, the person is rewarded. If it is burned, there will be loss, yet the individual still abides as saved.

The verse following is reassuring.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So after all of this horror (as some have interpreted it), we are again reassured of our solid standing in Christ by the persuasion of those who wrote this epistle. That persuasion comes with acknowledgement of expecting those things that accompany salvation. It ends with that little phrase, though we thus speak.

It is evident from that little phrase that they were thus speaking in a way that is different from what is expected. So the passage in question begins with an if, and ends with a but. After that, we are told that what was written is indeed different from the norm: though we thus speak. This passage is not what it seems on the surface, and does not speak contrary to the rest of Scripture to the loss of salvation.

And as the chapter moves to return to the subject at hand, the priesthood of Jesus Christ, the assurance of eternal security is solidified.

Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


And later in Hebrews we get to this gem:

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Perfected for all time, yet being sanctified. Your feelings may tell you otherwise, people who misread Scripture may tell you otherwise, Satan will tell you otherwise, - But in Christ, you have already been perfected for all time - forever - even though now, in time, you are being made holy (being sanctified).



Jeff wrote
Chapter 6 is in the middle of this greater context which speaks to the superiority of Jesus over the priesthood of Israel.


With this we agree.

You talk about context and I agree also.
One of the jobs of the priest was to offer sacrifices for sin.
We also know from context.

Hebrew 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The subject being taught is made clear.
That is the simple subject being taught.

It is not possible for the priest to renew them into repentance.

It does not tell us they can not repent.

Read it in context and I believe you will see it.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open
shame.

There is no joke there that does not fit the context even close.




No. 6     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Sep 26, 2017 at 10:04 AM     
another84 wrote:



Why do you see it as hypothetical?
And what difference does it make?


Jeff is (probably) referring to a theological position that some hold.

"It is important, first of all, to say that these verses present us with a genuine problem. Some expositors have tried to overcome the difficulty by suggesting that the prospect of genuine believers slipping into apostasy is purely hypothetical. In other words, the author is putting up a purely imaginary situation: 'If such believers ever opposed Christ it would be impossible to renew them to repentance, but then such a thing could not possibly happen.' I am naturally diffident about rejecting a view sincerely held by many scholars, but find myself in agreement with Philip Hughes when he says that the danger of apostasy here 'is real, not imaginary; otherwise this epistle with its high-sounding admonitions must be dismissed as trifling, worthless and ridiculous. Certainly, in our author's judgment, the situation is one of extreme gravity. He is addressing readers whose loss of confidence and whose flagging will to persevere in the Christian race (10:35f.; 12:3, 12) point alarmingly to the possibility of their dropping out of the contest altogether, and in doing so of placing themselves beyond all hope of restoration."

THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, (IVP)
No. 7     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 27, 2017 at 7:30 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

another84 wrote:



Why do you see it as hypothetical?
And what difference does it make?


Jeff is (probably) referring to a theological position that some hold.

"It is important, first of all, to say that these verses present us with a genuine problem. Some expositors have tried to overcome the difficulty by suggesting that the prospect of genuine believers slipping into apostasy is purely hypothetical. In other words, the author is putting up a purely imaginary situation: 'If such believers ever opposed Christ it would be impossible to renew them to repentance, but then such a thing could not possibly happen.' I am naturally diffident about rejecting a view sincerely held by many scholars, but find myself in agreement with Philip Hughes when he says that the danger of apostasy here 'is real, not imaginary; otherwise this epistle with its high-sounding admonitions must be dismissed as trifling, worthless and ridiculous. Certainly, in our author's judgment, the situation is one of extreme gravity. He is addressing readers whose loss of confidence and whose flagging will to persevere in the Christian race (10:35f.; 12:3, 12) point alarmingly to the possibility of their dropping out of the contest altogether, and in doing so of placing themselves beyond all hope of restoration."

THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, (IVP)


Hi Storm

I understand Jeff's point of view. It is how He comes to that conclusion that is the issue.

Thanks
No. 8     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Sep 27, 2017 at 12:10 PM     
another84 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

another84 wrote:



Why do you see it as hypothetical?
And what difference does it make?


Jeff is (probably) referring to a theological position that some hold.

"It is important, first of all, to say that these verses present us with a genuine problem. Some expositors have tried to overcome the difficulty by suggesting that the prospect of genuine believers slipping into apostasy is purely hypothetical. In other words, the author is putting up a purely imaginary situation: 'If such believers ever opposed Christ it would be impossible to renew them to repentance, but then such a thing could not possibly happen.' I am naturally diffident about rejecting a view sincerely held by many scholars, but find myself in agreement with Philip Hughes when he says that the danger of apostasy here 'is real, not imaginary; otherwise this epistle with its high-sounding admonitions must be dismissed as trifling, worthless and ridiculous. Certainly, in our author's judgment, the situation is one of extreme gravity. He is addressing readers whose loss of confidence and whose flagging will to persevere in the Christian race (10:35f.; 12:3, 12) point alarmingly to the possibility of their dropping out of the contest altogether, and in doing so of placing themselves beyond all hope of restoration."

THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, (IVP)


Hi Storm

I understand Jeff's point of view. It is how He comes to that conclusion that is the issue.

Thanks


No problem, but it is good for others to also know the various in's & out's of the debate.
No. 9     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Sep 27, 2017 at 8:28 PM     
another84 wrote:



Read it in context and I believe you will see it.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open
shame.

There is no joke there that does not fit the context even close.


When you begin with 6:4, you are already out of context. You removed the statement that comes before this passage, which is connected by the "For" in 6:4. It is difficult to understand, which is why so many come to different conclusions - and I am talking about leading scholars throughout history. But going back to chapter 5 and into the first part of chapter 6, understanding the context of first things, in which the audience of the letter seems to have been stuck and unable to move past, it can be understood to mean that one does not get saved and baptized, then fall away, then get saved and baptized again. You get saved and baptized, then continue on. Part of continuing on may include falling into sin, followed by some kind of correction, but never "renewed again to repentance" AS IN starting all over and getting saved again, baptized again - such as the case in the Old Covenant of offering another sacrifice every time you sin. Even today, many believe they can be "saved", then become "lost" and then "saved" again, and even get baptized again. Salvation, or being born again, is a one time experience. Once that happens, once God begins His work in an individual, He will complete it. The saved individual may be one bad example of a Christian, but God will deal with that. The church should, and the individual should, but God will chasten His own. We don't lay the foundation all over again.

But what needs to be desperately understood is that this passage is highly controversial, and needs to be understood as such, and NEVER taken to discount the clear, cut and dry, promises of Jesus, or other passages that guarantee the eternal security of the believer in Christ.

No. 10     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 28, 2017 at 8:20 AM     
When you begin with 6:4, you are already out of context. You removed the statement that comes before this passage, which is connected by the "For" in 6:4. It is difficult to understand, which is why so many come to different conclusions - and I am talking about leading scholars throughout history.


We are both in agreement with what leads up to that point.
These people had not matured. Babes in Christ. They may have had several issues.


But going back to chapter 5 and into the first part of chapter 6, understanding the context of first things, in which the audience of the letter seems to have been stuck and unable to move past, it can be understood to mean that one does not get saved and baptized, then fall away, then get saved and baptized again. You get saved and baptized, then continue on.


The Bible uses endure. What I believe the audience of the letter seems to have been stuck and unable to move past was how to be forgiven. Their belief was that a priest had to make a sacrifice for there sin. Just as you know that is not possible. No one else can renew us.

One point that is clear they were babes.






Even today, many believe they can be "saved", then become "lost" and then "saved" again, and even get baptized again. Salvation, or being born again, is a one time experience. Once that happens, once God begins His work in an individual, He will complete it.

I think that is a whole can of worms in itself.




The saved individual may be one bad example of a Christian, but God will deal with that. The church should, and the individual should, but God will chasten His own. We don't lay the foundation all over again.

I don't understand your point of view here??





But what needs to be desperately understood is that this passage is highly controversial, and needs to be understood as such, and NEVER taken to discount the clear, cut and dry, promises of Jesus, or other passages that guarantee the eternal security of the believer in Christ.


The question is "hypothetical" If anyone looks at these verses and believes, that it can not be true because it does not go along with your belief, should also be questioned.

Thanks Jeff
I want you to know, and for any that care. I question and post because I care. It is not about proving I'm right. I hope you believe the same, or I would not debate with you if it was just to fight. I believe we are brother in Christ. Peter and Paul had a different belief in circumcision.
No. 11     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Sep 29, 2017 at 10:20 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

The statement that follows begins with an if: And this we will do, if God permit. The condition of continuing toward perfection rests on God's permission. The if in verse 3 is exactly what it is, an if.

Since it is God's will that we do continue toward perfection, He will not let us down as we attempt to do so, since He is also the One who is at work in us to do His good will. The if in the passage is almost a joke. The impossibility of the entire topic lies not in our inability to repent again, but with an idea of God not permitting us to move on to perfection when it is His will that we do just that.


I think, you are not recognizing the responsibility of a person to strive towards perfection. Sure God supplies food, but we need to eat it. He won’t eat for you. He pours rains, nevertheless, one need to harvest it for our good.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Quoting Paul only dilutes the truth the Author is trying to inculcate!

On this side of the IF, we are now in the realm of the hypothetical. So now comes the hypothetical impossible repentance:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


The Author is also considering a remote possibility of a believer falling away for the worst and again trying to reconcile according to his whims and fancy for a kind of a personal gain. God will not treat kindly of such attempts.

The hypothetical aspect begins at the if of God's permissive will. Anyone who knows Scripture also knows full well that it is already impossible for anyone to repent outside of God's permission. This is evident throughout Scripture. In fact, it is God who grants repentance.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


If one treats that God also grants repentance without an element of personal responsibility, it is like thinking that God creates a robot who is granted to repent for salvation. Even Jesus had choice to disregard the cup, but He kept the will of His Father.

2nd Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Not Paul again!

It is impossible, without God, to repent at all.


Yes, God is there whether one repents or not.

The illustration of the earth and its produce demonstrates two results of receiving the rain: one of blessing and the other of cursing (or near to cursing, to be more accurate).

Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:


Yes, one need to pluck out the herbs and prepare it for our consumption

6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


We have the responsibility to burn, otherwise, they may outgrow the herbs.

The verse following is reassuring.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So after all of this horror (as some have interpreted it), we are again reassured of our solid standing in Christ by the persuasion of those who wrote this epistle. That persuasion comes with acknowledgement of expecting those things that accompany salvation. It ends with that little phrase, though we thus speak.


The word ‘accompany’ doesn’t indicate ‘accomplishment’.

It is evident from that little phrase that they were thus speaking in a way that is different from what is expected. So the passage in question begins with an if, and ends with a but. After that, we are told that what was written is indeed different from the norm: though we thus speak. This passage is not what it seems on the surface, and does not speak contrary to the rest of Scripture to the loss of salvation.


A self-assuring presumption.

And as the chapter moves to return to the subject at hand, the priesthood of Jesus Christ, the assurance of eternal security is solidified.

Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


After verses 6:4-6, verses 17-20 don’t lead us to assume eternal security.

And later in Hebrews we get to this gem:

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Perfected for all time, yet being sanctified. Your feelings may tell you otherwise, people who misread Scripture may tell you otherwise, Satan will tell you otherwise, - But in Christ, you have already been perfected for all time - forever - even though now, in time, you are being made holy (being sanctified).


Perfection can never be realized in our lifetime. That is why we need to run the race till the end. Only those who endure to the end will be saved. Hebrew speaks of people who are being sanctified being falling away too.

How do we realize the truth? The Holy Spirit reminds of the words of Jesus. That is how we understand the writings whether of Paul or Peter. Hebrews cannot be interpreted by leaning on Paul. Can you interpret based on Jesus’ words or at least of the chosen apostles’, namely, Peter and John? No wonder Martin Luther wanted Hebrews removed from the canon because it works against Paul. In many cases, Paul has to be picked with a pinch of salt, excluding his speculations.

No. 12     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 2, 2017 at 7:29 AM     
another84 wrote:

The saved individual may be one bad example of a Christian, but God will deal with that. The church should, and the individual should, but God will chasten His own. We don't lay the foundation all over again.


I don't understand your point of view here??


It comes from knowing other passages of Scripture, that when taken together in the overall context and message of the Bible, demonstrates how God works with His people as opposed to those who know not God.

We have the story of David when he committed adultery, and ultimately had Uriah murdered on the battle front. Under the Law, David should have been put to death. But David is the example of those who truly belong to God. He was a man after God's own heart, we are told. Yet he sinned tremendously. And God chastened him tremendously, but not according to the Law. There is a difference between those who are born into the Kingdom and those who are on the outside.

The church at Corinth had multiple problems, and one was not acknowledging their brothers and sisters in regard to the Lord's Table. The church is the body of Christ, and people who are a part of that body were being neglected. They were hungry, and not fed. It is in this passage that we find a powerful truth.

1st Corinthians 11:30  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 
11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 
11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 


We who are saved, who belong to God, are chastened by the Lord. WE will NOT be condemned with the world. Many, Many other like passages and examples of Scripture undergird 1st Corinthians 11:32.

Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 
8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 


This is powerful. Hebrews 6 is not so powerful. There are too many problems with Hebrews 6 to grant it authority over such clear cut passages that guarantee everlasting life to the believer in Jesus Christ.

John 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 


Hebrews 6 cannot even hold a candle to these passages. These statements are perfectly clear. No "if's". Hebrews 6 has an if, then a statement that they are persuaded better things of you, things that ACCOMPANY salvation, THOUGH WE THUS SPEAK. Have you considered what the phrase, though we thus speak may be implying?


But what needs to be desperately understood is that this passage is highly controversial, and needs to be understood as such, and NEVER taken to discount the clear, cut and dry, promises of Jesus, or other passages that guarantee the eternal security of the believer in Christ.


The question is "hypothetical" If anyone looks at these verses and believes, that it can not be true because it does not go along with your belief, should also be questioned.


If the verses were "stand alone," such as those of Jesus when He guarantees eternal life with no condemnation for those who believe in Him, then we would have the problem of scriptural contradiction. Both cannot be true. But since the passage is an "aside" and deals with a specific problem of the original audience, and departs from the greater context, we need to take the closer look and study all the details. And this has been done, time and again in word studies and commentaries for hundreds of years. That fact alone should also be taken in consideration. In the end, I choose to stand with what is perfectly clear.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1st Corinthians 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 


As such, Hebrews 6, however you want to interpret it, hypothetical or not, can never be taken to violate the two truths presented above.

Thanks Jeff
I want you to know, and for any that care. I question and post because I care. It is not about proving I'm right. I hope you believe the same, or I would not debate with you if it was just to fight. I believe we are brother in Christ. Peter and Paul had a different belief in circumcision.


Your welcome, and thank you for revisiting this. I always learn new things from studying Scripture.

Peter and Paul and circumcision can be for another thread.
No. 13     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 2, 2017 at 11:22 AM     
1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.



Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


I personally have no issues with predestination. As long as it is understood. If it is only the predestined that are save, then all that are not are then predestined to outer darkness, hell, damnation, where ever.
I believe there is the predestined and the whosoever.



This is powerful. Hebrews 6 is not so powerful. There are too many problems with Hebrews 6 to grant it authority over such clear cut passages that guarantee everlasting life to the believer in Jesus Christ.



The issue is not that God does not guarantee everlasting life to the believer in Jesus Christ. He does guarantee everlasting life to the believer in Jesus Christ. The issue is with sin. We are given away out, a Helper, but we are never told, you don't need to examine himself. In 1 Corinthians chapter 11. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation.
Paul was clearly speaking to Christian. Why would they be unworthily? Is this another hypothetical that can not really happen? Of course we are not told here why someone would be unworthily. Could it be sin?



35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

What does it mean to believeth? Again if you are believing, no issue! The issue is If you sin! Sin and do not repent.
Examine ourselves.

I agree these verse are very clear! But to the point I'm trying make to you.
No. 14     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 2, 2017 at 5:40 PM     
I neglected to comment on this from post 5.

another84 wrote:

It is not possible for the priest to renew them into repentance.

It does not tell us they can not repent.

Read it in context and I believe you will see it.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open
shame.


This has nothing to do with a priest renewing them to repentance. Everything mentioned has to do with a genuine born-again believer. They were enlightened, they tasted of the heavenly gift. They partook of the Holy Spirit. They tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. And then they fell away. It does not say how they fell away, but it does say that it is impossible to renew them to repentance. Hence, the impossible repentance.

For it is impossible for those who..., having fallen away to renew them to repentance.

You have to insert the priest into the text in order to confine the meaning as you have it. The text itself is more open ended.

However, if you have it as meaning the priest and sacrifice of an animal, and make that the impossibility in the context of repentance, then we have a whole new meaning altogether. Which again makes the point that one cannot use a controversial text of Scripture to contradict other passages. The meaning is not clear, or we should be in some kind of agreement. The fact that we do not agree, combined with the fact that there is division among some of the most learned scholars on this very text, should be a good indication to not make a definite conclusion.
No. 15     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 2, 2017 at 6:08 PM     
another84 wrote:

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


This is another discussion, but it does lead to the main point that when God judges His own, He does not condemn them to hell, but chastens them in order that they are not condemned with the world.

But to get to the context of what it is to be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, you need to go back to the description of how the Corinthian church met, which was anything BUT meeting at the Lord's table. The way most traditional churches do Communion (or the Lord's Supper) have nearly nothing in common with the way it was taught and done in the beginning. It was a true meal and celebration in the beginning; not the cracker, shot glass and solemn funeral like atmosphere we have today. The best way to learn and experience Scripture is to practice it the way it was written.



Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


I personally have no issues with predestination. As long as it is understood. If it is only the predestined that are save, then all that are not are then predestined to outer darkness, hell, damnation, where ever.
I believe there is the predestined and the whosoever.


I believe that the whosoever are the predestined. It matters not what attitude you take about it. It is what it is. It mattered not to Jesus when He told His disciples that they could not come to Him unless it was given of the Father - and many left.

John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father
6:66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 


So now we have a falling away among Jesus' original disciples. But we also need to keep in mind that this was before the cross, before the Holy Spirit was given. At that time, the expectation was the restoration of Israel. The unexpected was about to happen, and all the disciples would be scattered - except for John, and a few women.



This is powerful. Hebrews 6 is not so powerful. There are too many problems with Hebrews 6 to grant it authority over such clear cut passages that guarantee everlasting life to the believer in Jesus Christ.



The issue is not that God does not guarantee everlasting life to the believer in Jesus Christ. He does guarantee everlasting life to the believer in Jesus Christ. The issue is with sin.


And yet it says that God chastens His people and they will not be condemned with the world. The sin question has been answered in Christ. Christians will struggle with sin and the flesh, and the devil, all their lives. Some will sin, not deal with that sin, and God will chasten them. Yet they are not condemned, because they still have the righteousness of God by faith in Christ imputed to them just as Abraham had God's righteousness imputed to him for believing God. Abraham still sinned. He is on record for lying twice, and giving his own wife into the hand of another man to save his own skin. He committed adultery with Hagar to have a child because he could not wait for God. Abraham sinned after receiving God's imputed righteousness, several times. Jacob was in the midst of sin when God appeared to him at Bethel. God said nothing of Jacob's lying to his father and stealing from his brother. But He did make some very precious promises to Jacob. Jacob was already chosen before he was born. And Jacob still had some sin coming up in his life in the future. God knows all our sins- past, present and future. And if you think God has not factored in all our sins on the cross, then I suppose you will believe that one can be saved, sin at some point in time later, and lose his or her salvation. But that is a far cry from what Jesus says or what the Bible teaches. God will not change what He has done through Christ Jesus. Nor will He go back on His promises.

Romans 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 

No. 16     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 3, 2017 at 7:29 AM     
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

What can anyone do that is not given to us to do? Are not we given the free will to choose? Or are those not predestined to choose predestined to hell?

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

You make the point that context is important when it fits what you believe.
Did Jesus have the power to lay down His life?

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



Jeff wrote
God knows all our sins- past, present and future. And if you think God has not factored in all our sins on the cross, then I suppose you will believe that one can be saved, sin at some point in time later, and lose his or her salvation.


That is the point I have been making!

But that is a far cry from what Jesus says or what the Bible teaches. God will not change what He has done through Christ Jesus. Nor will He go back on His promises.



We are never told all future sin is forgiven. We are told:
1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

These verses are directed to Christians. If our future sin is forgiven, why should we confess our sins?


Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Many are called few are chosen, and God is not sorry He did this. Not sure what this has to do with what we are talking about.
No. 17     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 5, 2017 at 12:18 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

I neglected to comment on this from post 5.

another84 wrote:

It is not possible for the priest to renew them into repentance.

It does not tell us they can not repent.

Read it in context and I believe you will see it.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open
shame.



Jeff wrote

This has nothing to do with a priest renewing them to repentance.


Jeff stated in post #4

So now we're in chapter 5, which is a continuation of chapter 4. The movement from chapter 4 and into chapter 5 demonstrates the superiority of Christ's priesthood over that of Aaron and the Levitical priesthood. Chapter 7 continues this thought while building momentum, strengthening the argument. Chapter 6 is in the middle of this greater context which speaks to the of superiority of Jesus over the priesthood Israel.


The author does speaks of the superiority of Jesus over the priesthood Israel. Can the priest of Israel renew someone to repentance? The answer would be no that would be impossible! Can Jesus renew someone to repentance? Yes! That clearly shows the of superiority of Jesus over the priesthood Israel.



Jeff wrote
Everything mentioned has to do with a genuine born-again believer. They were enlightened, they tasted of the heavenly gift. They partook of the Holy Spirit. They tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. And then they fell away. It does not say how they fell away, but it does say that it is impossible to renew them to repentance. Hence, the impossible repentance.


Genuine born-again believer. It does say impossible to renew them, not they can not be renewed.

The fact here is we do agree they were genuine born-again believer, they did fall away.



Jeff wrote
For it is impossible for those who..., having fallen away to renew them to repentance.

You have to insert the priest into the text in order to confine the meaning as you have it. The text itself is more open ended.


Same book of the Bible.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

We both agree to the point the author is making. Does the statement that priest could not renew someone to repentance fit the context?

Or does it just not fit the idea that a lot of people have?

I believe it clearly fit the context.



Jeff wrote
However, if you have it as meaning the priest and sacrifice of an animal, and make that the impossibility in the context of repentance, then we have a whole new meaning altogether. Which again makes the point that one cannot use a controversial text of Scripture to contradict other passages. The meaning is not clear, or we should be in some kind of agreement. The fact that we do not agree, combined with the fact that there is division among some of the most learned scholars on this very text, should be a good indication to not make a definite conclusion.


I do not see it contradict other passages. Unless those other passages are taken out of context also. There are no clear verses, in context, that someone can't loose salvation. There are several verses that give us warnings, and worse. If you don't believe that try testing God to find out. Don't do that.

We can make so many thing fit, or twist to our liking, but sooner or later the pieces will not fit.
No. 18     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 5, 2017 at 5:49 PM     
another84 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

I neglected to comment on this from post 5.

another84 wrote:

It is not possible for the priest to renew them into repentance.

It does not tell us they can not repent.

Read it in context and I believe you will see it.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 Having fallen away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open
shame.



Jeff wrote

This has nothing to do with a priest renewing them to repentance.


Jeff stated in post #4

So now we're in chapter 5, which is a continuation of chapter 4. The movement from chapter 4 and into chapter 5 demonstrates the superiority of Christ's priesthood over that of Aaron and the Levitical priesthood. Chapter 7 continues this thought while building momentum, strengthening the argument. Chapter 6 is in the middle of this greater context which speaks to the of superiority of Jesus over the priesthood Israel.


The author does speaks of the superiority of Jesus over the priesthood Israel. Can the priest of Israel renew someone to repentance? The answer would be no that would be impossible! Can Jesus renew someone to repentance? Yes! That clearly shows the of superiority of Jesus over the priesthood Israel.



Jeff wrote
Everything mentioned has to do with a genuine born-again believer. They were enlightened, they tasted of the heavenly gift. They partook of the Holy Spirit. They tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. And then they fell away. It does not say how they fell away, but it does say that it is impossible to renew them to repentance. Hence, the impossible repentance.


Genuine born-again believer. It does say impossible to renew them, not they can not be renewed.

The fact here is we do agree they were genuine born-again believer, they did fall away.



Jeff wrote
For it is impossible for those who..., having fallen away to renew them to repentance.

You have to insert the priest into the text in order to confine the meaning as you have it. The text itself is more open ended.


Same book of the Bible.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

We both agree to the point the author is making. Does the statement that priest could not renew someone to repentance fit the context?

Or does it just not fit the idea that a lot of people have?

I believe it clearly fit the context.



Jeff wrote
However, if you have it as meaning the priest and sacrifice of an animal, and make that the impossibility in the context of repentance, then we have a whole new meaning altogether. Which again makes the point that one cannot use a controversial text of Scripture to contradict other passages. The meaning is not clear, or we should be in some kind of agreement. The fact that we do not agree, combined with the fact that there is division among some of the most learned scholars on this very text, should be a good indication to not make a definite conclusion.


I do not see it contradict other passages. Unless those other passages are taken out of context also. There are no clear verses, in context, that someone can't loose salvation. There are several verses that give us warnings, and worse. If you don't believe that try testing God to find out. Don't do that.

We can make so many thing fit, or twist to our liking, but sooner or later the pieces will not fit.


And that is why so many are not in agreement. One may see another as twisting scriptures because of his or her own viewpoint. If one believes salvation can be lost, for example, he or she will see that - here in Hebrews 6, as well as Hebrews 10, or in 2nd Peter 2:22, among other passages. If, however, one believes salvation cannot be lost, then these passages become problematic - but they are not unsurpassable because not one of them spell out in no uncertain terms that salvation can be lost. You have to make it say that by emphasizing what appears to be strong implication. Yet every passage that guarantees everlasting life with no condemnation is exactly that - no uncertain terms. Imputed righteousness. Predestined. Passed from death to life. So when we run across these problematic passages and place them beside the promises Jesus makes to those who believe in Him, or the other passages that guarantee our position in Him, then we have two choices. Either there is a contradiction, or we are drawing the wrong conclusions. Since the promises of Jesus come across very clearly with no condemnation for the believer in Him, and with so many other passages in the New Testament agreement with what He said, and even strengthening the guarantee of eternal security, then the problem cannot be our understanding of that side of the equation. But when we read passages like the one here in Hebrews, at first glance it looks pretty scary - but we know that it cannot mean loss of that which Jesus has guaranteed for us. He who said those who believe in Him "shall not come into condemnation," also said that He "would lose nothing". Therefore, keeping or losing salvation is not even in question for the believer. Jesus already settled that, and the believer is, and will always be, secure in Him. So we must keep that proper balance as we endeavor to understand exactly what is being said in these questionable passages, and why they are there. In every case I have studied, including this one, I have never found salvation to be in question. But this is the situation we find ourselves in. I am a steadfast believer in the rock solid words of Jesus Christ, that He will not lose that which He has committed to Himself. Others place eternal security on the shoulders of imperfect humans and their ability to stop sinning.

And that argument will never end until we find ourselves together in glory - and there will be a lot of surprises.
No. 19     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 5, 2017 at 10:54 PM     
Hi Jeff


Do you believe these genuine born-again believer, as you stated in post 14, will have Jesus as their advocator?

Context of your answer will be very important?

For example
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Knowing to whom Jesus speaking adds meaning to this.

The question is not that a genuine born-again believer can fall away, but will they still be saved?

Thanks


No. 20     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 8, 2017 at 10:42 AM     
It would seem that there are some six viewpoints as to the Hebrew's author's position of Heb. 6 set forth by scholars.

I’m going to briefly mention each of them, not for debating purposes as at this present moment I am not interested in this particular debate, but mentioning them just for informational purposes. Each individual point is in the source's author's words (not mine), only abbreviated for this post.

I will source the material at the end.


(1) The hypothetical view suggests that the author crafts this harsh warning for rhetorical impact, to blast the hearers out of their spiritual slumber, but that the state described cannot really happen.

(2) The pre-conversion Jew view states that those addressed are Jews who have associated somewhat with the Christian community but have yet to make a commitment to Christ.

(3) The covenant community view, set forth by Verlyn Verbrugge, suggests that the “Vineyard Song” of Isaiah 5:1-7 forms the backdrop of Heb. 6:4-6 and that the author has in mind God’s rejection of a whole community rather than the individuals.

(4) A fourth view might be called the true believer under judgment view. This position holds that those threatened by the judgment of God indeed are true believers and do face severe judgment by God but cannot lose their salvation.

(5) Another view has been called the phenomenological true believer view. This interpretation holds that those under consideration must be judged as having been true, regenerate believers, who have now lost their relationship with Christ and can no longer anticipate salvation upon Christ’s return.

(6) This then brings us to a sixth position, the one proposed in this commentary, which might be labeled the phenomenological unbeliever view. The stance has been a favorite of those with a Calvinistic orientation and proposes that the “fallen” in Hebrews may have seemed to be genuine Christians as they participated in the community of believers, but in fact, by their rejection of Christ, have shown themselves to lack genuine faith. The danger heralded in the warnings, therefore, is real, constituting eternal judgment, and those being addressed could commit the sin.

SOURCE – THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie (Zondervan)


Keep in mind that I have only briefly mentioned the titles and a very short description of the differing viewpoints. The source just mentioned goes much more deeply into each point, doing a good job of pointing out the PROS and CONS of each position.

And as can be seen by my own thread in this forum concerning the eternal position of one who unrighteously deserts a marriage, I myself have come to the conclusion of position six (6) above in that thread.
No. 21     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Oct 8, 2017 at 11:26 AM     
I tend to believe that the author of Hebrews was Apollos. He and Paul never met, and Apollos showed no interest in meeting Paul. Perhaps, he and Paul did not see eye to eye on many issues.

So understanding Hebrews through Paul is an exercise in futility and also distracting. :thumb_dn:
No. 22     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 8, 2017 at 10:57 PM     
Thanks Storm

That the author crafts this harsh warning for rhetorical impact, to blast the hearers out of their spiritual slumber, but that the state described cannot really happen.

At least that makes the point of why hypothetical.


They needed milk, or easy to understand stuff. Just plain basic teaching. Why then should these verses be controversial today?

To give them a statement that Jesus could not even save them. Wow!

Thanks again Storm that does help.

No. 23     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 9, 2017 at 4:40 PM     
another84 wrote:

Hi Jeff


Do you believe these genuine born-again believer, as you stated in post 14, will have Jesus as their advocator?

Context of your answer will be very important?

For example
Jhn 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Knowing to whom Jesus speaking adds meaning to this.

The question is not that a genuine born-again believer can fall away, but will they still be saved?

Thanks


In Post 14, I pointed out that Hebrews 6:4-5 is descriptive of genuine born-again believers. I believe it was in a commentary by either Ray Steadman or Andrew Murray that pointed me in that direction, to which I still agree. McDonald in his Believer's Bible Commentary seems convinced that the description could fit saved or unsaved - noting that it is never clearly stated that they had been born again, nor any mentioned of having "such essentials as saving faith, redemption by His blood, or eternal life." The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New testament Edition mentions four viewpoints (probably already covered among the 6 mentioned by Storm), and holds to the fourth, making the passage say that a Christian could become disqualified for further service. But I believe that the wording in the passage itself, though not clearly understood, explains the hypothetical.

Hebrews 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 
6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 
6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 


The key here is crucifying the Son of God afresh. That is impossible, for Christ was only crucified one time. And if we identified with Him in death (Romans 6), we died with Him. That is a one time event. If we sin after that, we don't start all over again. We merely confess our sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Moses made this mistake in the desert when he struck the rock the second time, when God told him to merely speak to the rock. Because of that, Moses was disqualified to lead the people into the Promised Land. That rock was representative of Christ, who was struck one time - on the cross. After that we merely speak to Him. So maybe the Bible Knowledge Commentary is on to something.

But unlike the priests offering a lamb or a goat or a dove again and again, Christ is a one time deal, and covers it all. To go back and get rebaptized, and reconfess, to become resealed by the Spirit, does a disservice to God, and is insulting the Spirit of Grace.

But getting to the question - I believe once God saves a person, God will keep that person and will in no way lose that person. He may chasten that person, and He may take that person out of this world through death, but Christ already told us that He will lose NOTHING. If you place salvation on the shoulders of the saved individual as to whether or not he can keep himself or herself saved, then I would believe you to be in error because in my view, you are telling God that He is not true to His word. Scripture always teaches salvation as an act of God, sealing the saved unto the day of redemption as an act of God's Spirit, and promises of losing nothing - the word of Christ. I really do not see any credible argument against eternal security. I do see a lot of misinterpreted passages of Scripture used by those who look to the outward man and judge accordingly. But say a Christian does not live up to God's requirements. There will certainly be loss, but not of salvation. We're looking for rewards.

1st Corinthians 3:11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 
3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 
3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 
3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 

No. 24     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 10:20 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New testament Edition mentions four viewpoints (probably already covered among the 6 mentioned by Storm), and holds to the fourth, making the passage say that a Christian could become disqualified for further service.


I did check my own copy of the Bible Knowledge Commentary after reading your statement, but I have to say that it is not nearly one of my favorite commentaries, mostly because it was written by commentators from The Dallas Theological Seminary, which has respectability among conservative thinkers, yet the conclusions of such people tend to be rather restrictive upon the Body of Christ, IMHO. Theologically speaking (and when such academic criteria were more important to me), I tended to be much closer to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (of whom I've personally sat under many professors' teachings) and yes, even Fuller Theological Seminary, which though it has fallen into disfavor to a degree with some evangelicals, still rides high in my estimation.

No big deal, and not engaging in this particular debate, but had to put my 2 cents in.
No. 25     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 10, 2017 at 4:20 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New testament Edition mentions four viewpoints (probably already covered among the 6 mentioned by Storm), and holds to the fourth, making the passage say that a Christian could become disqualified for further service.


I did check my own copy of the Bible Knowledge Commentary after reading your statement, but I have to say that it is not nearly one of my favorite commentaries, mostly because it was written by commentators from The Dallas Theological Seminary, which has respectability among conservative thinkers, yet the conclusions of such people tend to be rather restrictive upon the Body of Christ, IMHO. Theologically speaking (and when such academic criteria were more important to me), I tended to be much closer to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (of whom I've personally sat under many professors' teachings) and yes, even Fuller Theological Seminary, which though it has fallen into disfavor to a degree with some evangelicals, still rides high in my estimation.

No big deal, and not engaging in this particular debate, but had to put my 2 cents in.


It was the first commentary set I bought (1984 or 85 I think), recommended by a Baptist pastor. At the time I was a new Christian and was determined to read nothing but the Bible; but he talked me into reading what other people wrote, pointing out that I might learn passages that are difficult to understand, and also that I do not have to agree with the comments. So I bought that set, as well as the three volume word study set (Thayer, Gesenius, Strong) and an interlinear Bible. I think I used "Puritan Reformed" mail order catalogue which he turned me on to back then - and was much cheaper than the Bible book stores in those days (later I started getting most of my books from Christian Book Distributors). Since that time I have built my library with more commentaries, Bible encyclopedias and dictionaries, word study works, church history, etc. though books are becoming obsolete these days. And though I have grown and changed over the years, and don't agree with a lot of what I used to believe and hold to be true, I still find some of what they say to be helpful. I don't know, maybe it's time to downsize the library.
No. 26     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 12:34 AM     
Hypothetical if.
These are verse spoke by Jesus to the disciples.

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it,
that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more
can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments,
and abide in his love.


Look how some other version word this verse 6.
New International Version
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

New Living Translation
Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

English Standard Version
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Jesus made it clear He will not lose any, but that is if you abide in Him. If you abide not....

Could this just be hypothetical, or conditional?

God's love is without condition, He is also just, and holy, and righteous. Sin has its own consequences. Rejecting eternal life has its consequences.

We must remain in Jesus. There is clearly no OSAS.
No. 27     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 57   on  Jan 12, 2018 at 8:45 PM     
another84 wrote:

Hypothetical if.
These are verse spoke by Jesus to the disciples.

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it,
that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more
can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
for without me ye can do nothing.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments,
and abide in his love.


Look how some other version word this verse 6.
New International Version
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

New Living Translation
Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

English Standard Version
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Jesus made it clear He will not lose any, but that is if you abide in Him. If you abide not....

Could this just be hypothetical, or conditional?

God's love is without condition, He is also just, and holy, and righteous. Sin has its own consequences. Rejecting eternal life has its consequences.

We must remain in Jesus. There is clearly no OSAS.


Wow. It has been a while, and I missed this one. Looks like we left the topic, which was Hebrews 6.

This passage out of John's gospel would more likely correspond with Hebrews 10:25 and the verses that follow, which has to do with forsaking the assembly (which is also not abiding since the assembly is the body of Christ).

But again, we got the cart ahead of the horse. Scripture cannot be used to contradict Scripture, and Jesus already gave us assurance of eternal security in John 3:17, 5:24, 6:37, 6:44, among other passages, so before attempting to show from these other verses, like the passage quoted and conclusion drawn above, why not visit the four verses I just provided and demonstrate how salvation can be lost from those choice words of Jesus Christ?

But to deal with the above, John 15:6 specifically, we are already told that the branch is not abiding in Christ. And this verse has been interpreted in a variety of ways. We cannot conclude that this is a "once saved" person who has chosen to not abide in the Vine and is therefore cast out and sent to hell - otherwise we would have a contradiction with the other verses listed, and Jesus is not contradicting Himself - John 5:24 is very specific, salvation, once gained is never lost.

So those who have interpreted John 15:6 in that manner are wrong - unless they can explain the same conclusion from those other passages (and I only listed 4 - there are plenty of others).

So we conclude that salvation is not lost, but that begs the question: Has salvation even been gained? Still talking 15:6 here. A person can claim to be saved, but what does Jesus say?

Matthew 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 
7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 
7:17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 
7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 
7:19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 
7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 

We're talking about fruit here. You will know them by their fruit. There are professors who claim to profess Christ, but are they producing the fruit that accompanies salvation? There is a difference between not abiding in Christ at all (15:6), and being a branch in Him yet not producing (15:2 - branches that the Father takes away - whatever that means - see 1st Corinthians 11:30-32 where God takes some away).

The major difference between the two views ("OSAS," or "losing salvation") is focus. When focus is on the Source, God Almighty, the Lord Jesus Christ, the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), then there is no problem understanding that He is well able to keep those whom He has chosen regardless of anyone or anything whatsoever. Focus on God's ability and the words of Jesus Christ guaranteeing eternal security to those who believe in Him (even in His name) provides confidence and a most blessed assurance that passes all understanding. On the other hand, focus on the human side will always result in lack of assurance, possibility of loss, leading to fear and despair, as it places eternal security on the sinking sand of human ability. It is a false teaching to be avoided, and is one of the devil's lies. It creates confusion because one begins to see passages of Scripture in contradiction with others, thereby causing those that adhere to the false teaching to completely ignore the precious promises that God set forth in order to ensure our confidence in Him.

It is this false teaching that has caused more than one Christian (?) to completely throw out most of the New Testament, because Paul is in complete agreement with Jesus here. Amazing Grace! It is so amazing that people cannot believe it.

No. 28     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Jan 16, 2018 at 5:13 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Everything in between these two statements MUST be taken within the context OF these two statements"


Hebrews 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit. 

Hebrews 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 


That IF is HUGE. Because after that IF, we then proceed to what is IMPOSSIBLE. After that IF, after that IMPOSSIBILITY of repentance, we then get to "THOUGH THUS WE SPEAK."

It is all hypothetical.



Hi Jeff
you said
Looks like we left the topic, which was Hebrews 6.

The point of the is... (It is all hypothetical)

You believe a big part of chapter 6 is hypothetical and can not happen.

Jesus speaking to the disciples.


You wrote
But to deal with the above, John 15:6 specifically, we are already told that the branch is not abiding in Christ. And this verse has been interpreted in a variety of ways. We cannot conclude that this is a "once saved" person who has chosen to not abide in the Vine and is therefore cast out and sent to hell - otherwise we would have a contradiction with the other verses listed, and Jesus is not contradicting Himself - John 5:24 is very specific, salvation, once gained is never lost.


The only issue with contradicting is when osas is put in the mix. Jesus was talking to the disciples, which I believe we can say they were saved.
Jesus was telling them.

Why would Jesus say this to the disciples if osas is true.


Jesus was clearly talking to saved disciples. Jesus was clearly telling them John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments,
and abide in his love.

If the disciples were told this how much more does this apply to us?

There should be no question to what Jesus was saying.
you wrote
The major difference between the two views ("OSAS," or "losing salvation") is focus. When focus is on the Source, God Almighty, the Lord Jesus Christ, the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), then there is no problem understanding that He is well able to keep those whom He has chosen regardless of anyone or anything whatsoever. Focus on God's ability and the words of Jesus Christ guaranteeing eternal security to those who believe in Him (even in His name) provides confidence and a most blessed assurance that passes all understanding. On the other hand, focus on the human side will always result in lack of assurance, possibility of loss, leading to fear and despair, as it places eternal security on the sinking sand of human ability. It is a false teaching to be avoided, and is one of the devil's lies. It creates confusion because one begins to see passages of Scripture in contradiction with others, thereby causing those that adhere to the false teaching to completely ignore the precious promises that God set forth in order to ensure our confidence in Him.


The only questionable point that can be made is sealed by the Holy Spirit.
But the issue with that is, it does not come with a definition. We must put our own conclusion to what sealed really means.

I see osas as a lie from the devil. I believe it takes away from what Jesus was telling the disciples, and it goes back to what the serpent said in the garden of Eden. If you eat of the fruit you will not die. Osas tells us now if you sin you can not lose your salvation.
As you said.... When focus is on the Source, God Almighty, the Lord Jesus Christ, the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), then there is no problem understanding that He is well able to keep those whom He has chosen regardless of anyone or anything whatsoever.
The issue is when we take our focus off God Almighty. We go back to what Jesus was telling the disciples.
No. 29     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 57   on  Jan 17, 2018 at 5:16 PM     
John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. - 2nd Timothy 1:12

Psalms 118:8  It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.


As I stated before. It is a matter of focus. You focus on man, obviously salvation can be lost. Man is utterly unable to keep himself saved.

If you focus on God and His ability to keep those whom He has chosen, and on the precious promises of Jesus Christ, then salvation is secure. The argumentation and passages of Scripture have already been laid out in this and several other threads. Those who are truly seeking and are open to the Scriptures will, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, find the truth.

No. 30     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Jan 20, 2018 at 6:25 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. - 2nd Timothy 1:12

Psalms 118:8  It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.


As I stated before. It is a matter of focus. You focus on man, obviously salvation can be lost. Man is utterly unable to keep himself saved.

If you focus on God and His ability to keep those whom He has chosen, and on the precious promises of Jesus Christ, then salvation is secure. The argumentation and passages of Scripture have already been laid out in this and several other threads. Those who are truly seeking and are open to the Scriptures will, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, find the truth.




Hi Jeff

The point here is not if man can save himself but can man still earn death.
For the wages of sin is death.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me (Jesus) ye can do nothing.

Jesus was clearly telling the 11 disciples, at the last supper to remain in Jesus.

Why even tell them this if this is not even possible.
Jesus was clearly warning them what would happen to any that did not remain in Him.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.

Osas does not look to this. It will only say it is hypothetical.

No. 31     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 57   on  Jan 21, 2018 at 3:57 PM     
another84 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. - 2nd Timothy 1:12

Psalms 118:8  It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.


As I stated before. It is a matter of focus. You focus on man, obviously salvation can be lost. Man is utterly unable to keep himself saved.

If you focus on God and His ability to keep those whom He has chosen, and on the precious promises of Jesus Christ, then salvation is secure. The argumentation and passages of Scripture have already been laid out in this and several other threads. Those who are truly seeking and are open to the Scriptures will, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, find the truth.




Hi Jeff

The point here is not if man can save himself but can man still earn death.
For the wages of sin is death.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me (Jesus) ye can do nothing.

Jesus was clearly telling the 11 disciples, at the last supper to remain in Jesus.

Why even tell them this if this is not even possible.
Jesus was clearly warning them what would happen to any that did not remain in Him.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.

Osas does not look to this. It will only say it is hypothetical.



Post 27 explained it. It has been dealt with. Maybe not to your personal satisfaction, but we cannot satisfy everybody. You do make a good point though, in stating that Jesus was telling this to His own disciples, and naturally assume that salvation can be lost. But you also have to imagine that one was already in the vine, then chose not to abide in the vine. Jesus made no such statement.

Jesus was specific. To one who IS in the Vine, yet does not produce fruit, the Father takes away. To the one NOT abiding (and He does not say, one who WAS abiding and then chose NOT to abide - that is YOUR assumption alone), they are cast out, and MEN gather them up as branches and burn them. So we have several problems. What is this idea of MEN doing the gathering and burning? If this passage was a crystal clear teaching about once saved, then having sinned and therefore lost again, I would not have an issue with it. I might have an issue with those other passages, like John 5:24, Ephesians 4:30 among many others that state in no uncertain terms that salvation will never be lost to the believer, because there would be a definite contradiction. But as this passage has caused more division over meaning than consensus, it cannot be taken as the final authority on the topic.

But again, either God is able to keep those whom He has chosen, or we are all dependent on our own ability to keep ourselves faithful at every given moment, which includes every instance of asking forgiveness when we sin (not "if" - WHEN). That, to me, is sinking sand.

So here's a question for you. Did Jacob lose his salvation when he stole his brother's blessing and lied to his father? How did God deal with that? What is the biblical example here?
No. 32     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Jan 23, 2018 at 7:30 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

another84 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. - 2nd Timothy 1:12

Psalms 118:8  It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.


As I stated before. It is a matter of focus. You focus on man, obviously salvation can be lost. Man is utterly unable to keep himself saved.

If you focus on God and His ability to keep those whom He has chosen, and on the precious promises of Jesus Christ, then salvation is secure. The argumentation and passages of Scripture have already been laid out in this and several other threads. Those who are truly seeking and are open to the Scriptures will, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, find the truth.




Hi Jeff

The point here is not if man can save himself but can man still earn death.
For the wages of sin is death.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me (Jesus) ye can do nothing.

Jesus was clearly telling the 11 disciples, at the last supper to remain in Jesus.

Why even tell them this if this is not even possible.
Jesus was clearly warning them what would happen to any that did not remain in Him.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.

Osas does not look to this. It will only say it is hypothetical.



Post 27 explained it. It has been dealt with. Maybe not to your personal satisfaction, but we cannot satisfy everybody. You do make a good point though, in stating that Jesus was telling this to His own disciples, and naturally assume that salvation can be lost. But you also have to imagine that one was already in the vine, then chose not to abide in the vine. Jesus made no such statement.

Jesus was specific. To one who IS in the Vine, yet does not produce fruit, the Father takes away. To the one NOT abiding (and He does not say, one who WAS abiding and then chose NOT to abide - that is YOUR assumption alone), they are cast out, and MEN gather them up as branches and burn them. So we have several problems. What is this idea of MEN doing the gathering and burning? If this passage was a crystal clear teaching about once saved, then having sinned and therefore lost again, I would not have an issue with it. I might have an issue with those other passages, like John 5:24, Ephesians 4:30 among many others that state in no uncertain terms that salvation will never be lost to the believer, because there would be a definite contradiction. But as this passage has caused more division over meaning than consensus, it cannot be taken as the final authority on the topic.

But again, either God is able to keep those whom He has chosen, or we are all dependent on our own ability to keep ourselves faithful at every given moment, which includes every instance of asking forgiveness when we sin (not "if" - WHEN). That, to me, is sinking sand.

So here's a question for you. Did Jacob lose his salvation when he stole his brother's blessing and lied to his father? How did God deal with that? What is the biblical example here?



Hi Jeff

All your explanation in 27 only said is it can not contradict other verses. I fully agree. It took me awhile to even be able to see how you could not see what is plan.

John 15:5 (Jesus said) I am the vine, ye(the disciples) are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
for without me ye can do nothing.
Jesus did not change to whom He was speaking. He then said, to the disciples.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus is not saying the disciples would leave Him only tell them what would happen if someone would. It is a warning.

Jesus clear tells them they are the branches. Very next verse, not some verse out of context, Jesus gives the disciples this warning.



Are you sure you want to use Jacob as your example?

Genesis 32:28


King James Bible
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

New International Version
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."

New Living Translation
"Your name will no longer be Jacob," the man told him. "From now on you will be called Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have won."

English Standard Version
Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

New American Standard Bible
He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."

International Standard Version
"Your name won't be Jacob anymore," the man replied, "but Israel, because you exerted yourself against both God and men, and you've emerged victorious."

Talk about hypothetical?

No. 33     Reply: Re: Hebrews 6   
By:  Verbatim   Gender: F   Age: 65   on  Jan 23, 2018 at 11:05 AM     
If you say you are a follower of Lord Jesus and deny Eternal Life, you are deceiving yourself...you are not saved.

The Word of God clearly states...

newness of life which the believer derives from Christ is the very essence of salvation, and hence the life of glory or the eternal life must also be theirs, Romans 6.8...Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
II Timothy 2.11…It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

It is the "gift of God in Jesus Christ our Lord." The life the faithful have here on earth, is inseparably connected with the eternal life beyond, the endless life of the future, the happy future of the saints in heaven,

Matthew 19.16,..And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?