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MeetChristians.com / Forums / Biblical & Theological Issues

No. 0     Original Topic:  Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  insular926   Gender: M   Age: 57   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 5:46 AM   Viewed 1527 times     
YOU can get cut off by God, He can throw you out of the fellowship where you cannot get back with Him so be careful.
No. 1     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  texascowgirl283   Gender: F   Age: 51   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 6:37 AM     
:no-no: insular, but becuaes you been deceived for so long by religion, you are going to be quite surprised when you find yourself in the kingdom of God. You will realize I had been telling you the truth all along about salvation.
No. 2     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM     
texascowgirl283 wrote:

:no-no: insular, but becuaes you been deceived for so long by man, you are going to be quite surprised when you find yourself in the kingdom of God. You will realize I had been telling you the truth all along about salvation.


Right from the 'horse mouth' so to say! :tongue:
No. 3     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  texascowgirl283   Gender: F   Age: 51   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 7:01 AM     
I changed man to religion for clarity after you copied it but before you responded and religion has done a bad number on the mind of its victims. Insular is a victim of deceit caused by religion and is scared senseless of a loving God becuase of religion. As you know I dont go to church to be brainwashed to be scared to death of a loving God who sent his son to die for me so that I and all sinners would have salvation. It is religious teachers that prey on the weak minded using fear as their weapon. Its an evil form of mind control.
No. 4     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Verbatim   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 8:42 AM     
insular926 wrote:

YOU can get cut off by God, He can throw you out of the fellowship where you cannot get back with Him so be careful.



Do not take councel from imature man, Bradley.

If you are in trouble with God- go to Him in prayer...and Hebrews 6 is conveying the outcome of the Hebrew Christians who were never true to Elohim?
When we are disobedient, God will not "put up with" our selfish desires.

Go to Him...if you are sincere in restoring your relationship with Almighty God.
No. 5     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Verbatim   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 8:48 AM     
texascowgirl283 wrote:

I changed man to religion for clarity after you copied it but before you responded and religion has done a bad number on the mind of its victims. Insular is a victim of deceit caused by religion and is scared senseless of a loving God becuase of religion. As you know I dont go to church to be brainwashed to be scared to death of a loving God who sent his son to die for me so that I and all sinners would have salvation. It is religious teachers that prey on the weak minded using fear as their weapon. Its an evil form of mind control.



You only become a citizen of God's kingdom if you are Born Again.
If you have not been Born Again, you are not a "child of God."
Unrepented sinners cannot enter into an everlasting life with Jesus.
No. 6     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 9:21 AM     
insular926 wrote:

YOU can get cut off by God, He can throw you out of the fellowship where you cannot get back with Him so be careful.



Insular ... As It Relates to Hebrews Chapter 6 ...

God's Word is referring to people who hear the gospel, make a PROFESSION of being a Christian, become identified with a Christian church, and then ABANDON their PROFESSION of faith ... refusing to accept Christ IN their life ... NOT ... POSSESSING ... Christ at all ... and think nothing about it.

They also desert the Christian fellowship and have nothing more to do with being with other Christians. They knowingly and willingly turn against the Lord. They have full knowledge of the truth, but they deliberately turn away from it.

This scripture passage is referring to " APOSTASY " ... people who are NOT concerned whatsoever about turning away from Christ ... people who refuse to accept Christ IN their life ... people who had only PROFESSED Christ, but never did ... POSSESS Christ.

Now ... Insular ...

You are saying this scripture passage is referring to people being " cut off " by God ... but ... you are placing an " incorrect " meaning to God's Word here in Hebrews 6.

It's not God cutting them off, but they were never IN.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you saying ... you have turned away from Christ ?

Are you saying ... you are deserting Christian fellowship ?

Are you saying ... you are not concerned about it any more ?

Please " re-consider " what you are stating here ... because what you are saying in this thread ... as it relates to Hebrews 6 ... is NOT correct.

No. 7     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Verbatim   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 9:32 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

insular926 wrote:

YOU can get cut off by God, He can throw you out of the fellowship where you cannot get back with Him so be careful.



Insular ... As It Relates to Hebrews Chapter 6 ...

God's Word is referring to people who hear the gospel, make a PROFESSION of being a Christian, become identified with a Christian church, and then ABANDON their PROFESSION of faith ... refusing to accept Christ IN their life ... NOT ... POSSESSING ... Christ at all ... and think nothing about it.

They also desert the Christian fellowship and have nothing more to do with being with other Christians. They knowingly and willingly turn against the Lord. They have full knowledge of the truth, but they deliberately turn away from it.

This scripture passage is referring to " APOSTASY " ... people who are NOT concerned whatsoever about turning away from Christ ... people who refuse to accept Christ IN their life ... people who had only PROFESSED Christ, but never did ... POSSESS Christ.

Now ... Insular ...

You are saying this scripture passage is referring to people being " cut off " by God ... but ... you are placing an " incorrect " meaning to God's Word here in Hebrews 6.

It's not God cutting them off, but they were never IN.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you saying ... you have turned away from Christ ?

Are you saying ... you are deserting Christian fellowship ?

Are you saying ... you are not concerned about it any more ?

Please " re-consider " what you are stating here ... because what you are saying in this thread ... as it relates to Hebrews 6 ... is NOT correct.




I agree
No. 8     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 9:46 AM     
Thank you Verbatim ... :high5:
No. 9     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  texascowgirl283   Gender: F   Age: 51   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 10:50 AM     
Verbatim wrote:

texascowgirl283 wrote:

I changed man to religion for clarity after you copied it but before you responded and religion has done a bad number on the mind of its victims. Insular is a victim of deceit caused by religion and is scared senseless of a loving God becuase of religion. As you know I dont go to church to be brainwashed to be scared to death of a loving God who sent his son to die for me so that I and all sinners would have salvation. It is religious teachers that prey on the weak minded using fear as their weapon. Its an evil form of mind control.



You only become a citizen of God's kingdom if you are Born Again.
If you have not been Born Again, you are not a "child of God."
Unrepented sinners cannot enter into an everlasting life with Jesus.

Correct BUT none of us are born again yet. That happens when all hear his voice and rise from their graves incorruptible and I know you believe different but I have proved it by the bible in many threads in the past. It gets tiring trying to make people believe the bible.
No. 10     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Verbatim   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 10:59 AM     
texascowgirl283 wrote:

Verbatim wrote:

texascowgirl283 wrote:

I changed man to religion for clarity after you copied it but before you responded and religion has done a bad number on the mind of its victims. Insular is a victim of deceit caused by religion and is scared senseless of a loving God becuase of religion. As you know I dont go to church to be brainwashed to be scared to death of a loving God who sent his son to die for me so that I and all sinners would have salvation. It is religious teachers that prey on the weak minded using fear as their weapon. Its an evil form of mind control.



You only become a citizen of God's kingdom if you are Born Again.
If you have not been Born Again, you are not a "child of God."
Unrepented sinners cannot enter into an everlasting life with Jesus.

Correct BUT none of us are born again yet. That happens when all hear his voice and rise from their graves incorruptible and I know you believe different but I have proved it by the bible in many threads in the past. It gets tiring trying to make people believe the bible.



You are a liar!

It is written..."you must be born again."

You are a blasphemer of God.
No. 11     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  texascowgirl283   Gender: F   Age: 51   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 11:20 AM     
Yes it is written and it will for sure be for everyone but it isn't so today as long as we are in a physical body.
No. 12     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Verbatim   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 11:26 AM     
to Texascowgirl


You need to get off of this forum.
No. 13     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  texascowgirl283   Gender: F   Age: 51   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 11:37 AM     
I knew that was coming. Seen it a mile away beucase I know how people are. Anyway, I have been talking to insular in mail anyway. Its him that needs the true message at this time due to his situation. I'll get to the rest of you when its your turn and you are the scared one.
No. 14     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 4:01 PM     
insular926 wrote:

YOU can get cut off by God, He can throw you out of the fellowship where you cannot get back with Him so be careful.


Brad, you might give some serious attention to RPM's post, or by following my posts in my "Spouse leaves a marriage" thread, where I am presently spending time in Hebrews.

Hebrews 6 doesn't talk about God throwing YOU out; it talks about you throwing HIM out!
No. 15     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 4:03 PM     
texascowgirl283 wrote:

It gets tiring trying to make people believe the bible.


Especially when the 'teacher' starts out with their own agenda.
No. 16     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 6:05 PM     
texascowgirl283 wrote:

... trying to make people believe ...



We have all been guilty of doing the same thing ... at one time or another ... just can't be done ... repeat ... just can't be done.

We simply speak the truth in love ... not trying ... but trusting God to " convince " people of the truth.

No. 17     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 7:20 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Hebrews 6 doesn't talk about God throwing YOU out; it talks about you throwing HIM out!



Right on Stormchaser ... :high5:

No. 18     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 7:27 PM     
Hebrews 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 
6:10  For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 


John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
No. 19     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 13, 2017 at 10:37 PM     
Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Jeff has hilighted the exact scriptures to read here Insular. As Verbatim has posted, this epistle is to the Hebrews and you will find Judaism discussed throughout Hebrews and Old Testament quotes as for understanding context.

Insular please listen to Jeff, Verbatim and RPM.

The Lord Loves you with the Greatest of love you will ever experience and you are His, even when faith is weak (as yours is currently). I love you as well and this is because you 'are' my Brother in Christ, my friend. Hugs and love sent your way.

Offering you this scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.

Consider all the good you have and do and the GREATEST is the LOVE you have for the Lord, Insular, don't base a mindset on 'works' as much as your love for God which is fulfillment of the Commandment Christ gave to us. You have done no sin that leads to death (those being murder, idolatry, adultery, etc.).





No. 20     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 14, 2017 at 6:46 AM     
I'm telling ya ... it does my heart good ... when Christians join together and stand in " one accord " ... for the good of another ... and for God's Glory.

Insular ...

You would have to agree ... we do have a wonderful " blessing " ... being here with these Christian people. Amen ? Amen !
No. 21     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 14, 2017 at 6:50 AM     
:group_prayer:
No. 22     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Sep 14, 2017 at 7:13 AM     
insular926 wrote:

YOU can get cut off by God, He can throw you out of the fellowship where you cannot get back with Him so be careful.


Are you thinking of the following verses?

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Philippians 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Corinthians 9: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Matthew 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


IF SO, YOUR CONCERN IS JUSTIFIED
No. 23     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 15, 2017 at 5:16 AM     
Well Insular ...

It will be interesting to see how God will get you through this one.

Please keep us posted ... as we continue keeping you in our prayers.

No. 24     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 15, 2017 at 8:29 AM     
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


This may be more to what insular is talking about.
No. 25     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 15, 2017 at 10:46 AM     
Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


What does made partakers of the Holy Ghost mean?
Received the Holy Ghost, but not sealed??


No. 26     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Sep 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM     
another84 wrote:

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


What does made partakers of the Holy Ghost mean?
Received the Holy Ghost, but not sealed??




A great question, and on what might be the most controversial scripture in the Bible.

I'm going to be continuing to address this issue on my own Theo forum thread, only temporarily sidetracked with putting some time in my hurricane thread on General Forum.
No. 27     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 15, 2017 at 11:53 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

another84 wrote:

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


What does made partakers of the Holy Ghost mean?
Received the Holy Ghost, but not sealed??




A great question, and on what might be the most controversial scripture in the Bible.

I'm going to be continuing to address this issue on my own Theo forum thread, only temporarily sidetracked with putting some time in my hurricane thread on General Forum.



I agree.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

To renew them again. That throws even more fuel on the fire. Because you would have to have been renewed at some time to be renew again.

I believe Heb 6:2 is a key point to understand.
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The laying on hands, in regards to receiving the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:14–19
No. 28     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Sep 15, 2017 at 8:32 PM     
another84 wrote:

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
This may be more to what insular is talking about.


John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
No. 29     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 16, 2017 at 5:58 AM     
1 Peter 5: 7 ...

" Give all your worries to Him, because He cares about you. "

No. 30     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 16, 2017 at 10:32 PM     
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

It is Faith that leads to salvation not our works (our works are fruit of our Faith and our rebirth in Christ). The law (taken as work by man over that of a heart condition; not by all, but many) was as a curse (burdensome), but Christ's yoke is not burdensome...

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Matthew 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Blasphemy is an unforgivable sin and there are sins that lead to death, but not all ... God is Good to forgive those that are not (and at times even those found guilty are saved just as the thief on the cross).

I think often our desire to please the Lord, although good ... is 'unrealistic.' Christ was needed for a reason (we fall short and are only justified through Him). God can have and do all; what can a mere human offer Him, but our love ...

Which is our only Commandment.

Ephesians 2:7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

We are to abstain from sin, but if we err, repent and turn away from it. This is not a loss of salvation if one's heart is truly repentant. His love is eternal and not timid or fleeing as a man's might be.

No. 31     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 17, 2017 at 6:10 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

We are to abstain from sin, but if we err, repent and turn away from it. This is not a loss of salvation if one's heart is truly repentant. His love is eternal and not timid or fleeing as a man's might be.



Very Well Stated ... :2thumbs:
No. 32     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 17, 2017 at 1:21 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

We are to abstain from sin, but if we err, repent and turn away from it. This is not a loss of salvation if one's heart is truly repentant. His love is eternal and not timid or fleeing as a man's might be.



Very Well Stated ...


I fully agree!

I just don't believe that is the point of Hebrews chapter 6.

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands,
and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

None of theses saves. No matter how many times you baptize someone, what ever you do. IE. Laying on hands. It is impossible for us to save them. We know they themselves can repent, but I can't repent for them.

If this is a letter to the Hebrew's. The Hebrew people believed the priest had to clean them, or make them clean. Correct?

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


To renew them is not the same as you can't repent and be saved.

God will renew them if they repent. We can't do anything for them.

Thanks
No. 33     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 18, 2017 at 11:19 AM     
Another wrote: God will renew them if they repent. We can't do anything for them.


I agree with you as well, but see that God Himself never changes, although human perceptions do through the Lord's Revelations (from the old Covenant to the new, I see the Lord the same).

Repentance and a contrite heart is not salvation, but it what the Lord seeks from us. The Lord's Promises to us are always Kept. So while it is true there is a mixture of Old Covenant and New in this passage ... it was always the Lord and not our works that justify anyone's salvation (it's a gift from the Lord ... not by works as many turned the Old Covenant 'incorrectly' to mean (i.e Israelites had to wash their hands to their elbows at one time and if not doing so where then shunned by one another ... this took the Leviticus laws to a point of work for salvation, which was 'factually' always incorrect [salvation is through faith by His Grace solely and always was the case ... this the Messianic Israelites accepting Jesus have found through revelation given].

This as well is our promise through Christ and His Work on the Cross (not our own; all things to the Glory of God and not of this world, but of Him).

No. 34     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 18, 2017 at 4:54 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Another wrote: God will renew them if they repent. We can't do anything for them.


I agree with you as well, but see that God Himself never changes, although human perceptions do through the Lord's Revelations (from the old Covenant to the new, I see the Lord the same).

Repentance and a contrite heart is not salvation, but it what the Lord seeks from us. The Lord's Promises to us are always Kept. So while it is true there is a mixture of Old Covenant and New in this passage ... it was always the Lord and not our works that justify anyone's salvation (it's a gift from the Lord ... not by works as many turned the Old Covenant 'incorrectly' to mean (i.e Israelites had to wash their hands to their elbows at one time and if not doing so where then shunned by one another ... this took the Leviticus laws to a point of work for salvation, which was 'factually' always incorrect [salvation is through faith by His Grace solely and always was the case ... this the Messianic Israelites accepting Jesus have found through revelation given].

This as well is our promise through Christ and His Work on the Cross (not our own; all things to the Glory of God and not of this world, but of Him).



Hi CAsandie
Not sure what point you are making here, in regards to....



Heb 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 6:3And this will we do, if God permit. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I believe those in these verses were among the saved. And they chose to leave. They crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I believe they can repent, and be renewed. But I believe they must repent to be renewed.

What did they fall away from? How could they be renewed again if they were never made new?
They had to be made new at some time if they are to renew them again.

There is too much there to say they had not been among the saved.

If you believe they were never saved why?
If you believe they were saved but can't be renewed why?


Thanks

No. 35     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 23, 2017 at 5:01 PM     
another84 wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

Another wrote: God will renew them if they repent. We can't do anything for them.


I agree with you as well, but see that God Himself never changes, although human perceptions do through the Lord's Revelations (from the old Covenant to the new, I see the Lord the same).

Repentance and a contrite heart is not salvation, but it what the Lord seeks from us. The Lord's Promises to us are always Kept. So while it is true there is a mixture of Old Covenant and New in this passage ... it was always the Lord and not our works that justify anyone's salvation (it's a gift from the Lord ... not by works as many turned the Old Covenant 'incorrectly' to mean (i.e Israelites had to wash their hands to their elbows at one time and if not doing so where then shunned by one another ... this took the Leviticus laws to a point of work for salvation, which was 'factually' always incorrect [salvation is through faith by His Grace solely and always was the case ... this the Messianic Israelites accepting Jesus have found through revelation given].

This as well is our promise through Christ and His Work on the Cross (not our own; all things to the Glory of God and not of this world, but of Him).



Hi CAsandie
Not sure what point you are making here, in regards to....



Heb 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 6:3And this will we do, if God permit. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I believe those in these verses were among the saved. And they chose to leave. They crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I believe they can repent, and be renewed. But I believe they must repent to be renewed.

What did they fall away from? How could they be renewed again if they were never made new?
They had to be made new at some time if they are to renew them again.

There is too much there to say they had not been among the saved.

If you believe they were never saved why?
If you believe they were saved but can't be renewed why?


Thanks



Hi Another,

Sorry for my delay in response (a difficult time currently). I had to go back and re-read what I wrote due to the time lapse. I do not believe I ever stated they were not saved (or they were saved either way). I believe Hebrews 6 is merely a warning and not condemnation to the Church or select individuals thereof.

I apologize for any misdirect seen in my post, but my point is that 'His' Promises are "always" kept regardless of what a recipient of his promises does or does not do...

except that they may stray from the Lord's Will.

Again, since Hebrews 6 is a 'warning' to the Church rather than the 'actual' condemnation of individuals failing in His Grace. In Hebrew 10 we read:

Hebrew 10:28 Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”


When we speak of Israelites (the first fruit) as does Hebrew 6, we are speaking of those 'chosen' first by the Lord. It is my belief (but I could be wrong and I am fully open to correction here), that the degree of difficulty for those under Mosaic law to understand that salvation was always by 'Grace,' is far more difficult than Gentiles. Many were (and some Messianic Jews still are) stuck between the two Covenants without fully grasping the law did not save, but Christ alone and His sacrifice. Pharisees were of great number and we see in Scripture Saul, later Paul's struggles.

So to me it is not a matter of 'works' that is being discussed, but one's understanding and knowledge in Christ that is being identified as a 'falling away.' It could be sin in life (giving way to the world over that of submission to Christ), but I feel the 'warning' so given is simply this (a warning and not condemnation).

It is better explained by Scripture itself though further in Chapter 6 to the Hebrews:

Hebrew 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14 saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” 15 And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. 16 For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.


Mod. a possibly relevant side not: Melchizedek did not qualify as a priest under Mosaic law, since he was not a descendant of Aaron. the same is true of Jesus. I do believe Pharisaical concerns were a high concern in Hebrews.

Thank you/God bless (and always nice to see you posting).
No. 36     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 24, 2017 at 8:37 AM     
Hi Sandie

Again, since Hebrews 6 is a 'warning' to the Church rather than the 'actual' condemnation of individuals failing in His Grace. In Hebrew 10 we read:


Hebrew 10:28 Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

When Jesus said "whosoever" it is not directed to any individuals. It is to all.

Hebrews 10:28 starts with anyone.

From this it would seem you believe the promise of God would be worse than death for the action in chapter 6.

Can you clear that up as to warning to a group vs. individuals?

Thanks




No. 37     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 24, 2017 at 9:28 AM     
Speaking of promises made.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Heb 6:15 And so, after he (Abraham) had patiently endured, he (Abraham) obtained the promise.

Abraham did endure. God knew Abraham would.

We can't do anything to say ourselves, but clearly sin leads to death.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the
Lord hath promised to them that love him.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he
any man:
Jamess 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Drawn away from what?
No. 38     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 24, 2017 at 10:18 AM     
another84 wrote: Can you clear that up as to warning to a group vs. individuals?

Thanks



Likely not if the issue returns to the old never ending debate of OSAS (I'm not fully knowledgeable that another discussion on OSAS was the OP's purpose here).

Regardless, I do not offer that here, but rather offer that warnings without a specific 'individual' means that we need to find what the 'warning' is about (since no specific example was given).

So we can go to the final instructions at the end of Hebrews:

[Concluding Moral Directions]

Hebrews 13:13 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. 3 Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also.

4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” 6 So we may boldly say:

“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”


[Concluding Religious Directions]

7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about[c] with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.


On your second post you ask drawn away from what? It's rather obvious this would be the Lord. Yet we also know the Lord will not give us too much temptation that we cannot handle.

Jamess 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 Cor 10:12 So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall. 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it. 14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to reasonable people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of blessing that we bless a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

The warning we see in Cor are the same a Hebrews (those sins that lead to death such as idolatry, murder, adultery, etc.).

Going back to the OP, the warning is not for common sins (sins that do not lead to death) that men might make and still be justified through the blood of Jesus and Promises of the Covenant.

No. 39     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 24, 2017 at 3:08 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

another84 wrote: Can you clear that up as to warning to a group vs. individuals?

Thanks



Likely not if the issue returns to the old never ending debate of OSAS (I'm not fully knowledgeable that another discussion on OSAS was the OP's purpose here).

another84 added

This is the OP
YOU can get cut off by God, He can throw you out of the fellowship where you cannot get back with Him so be careful.
What do you understand this to mean?


Regardless, I do not offer that here, but rather offer that warnings without a specific 'individual' means that we need to find what the 'warning' is about (since no specific example was given).

another84 added
If I understand what your saying the action that caused them to need to be renewed to repentance is not given. So this is for the most part not understandable???




So we can go to the final instructions at the end of Hebrews:

[Concluding Moral Directions]

Hebrews 13:13 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. 3 Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also.

4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” 6 So we may boldly say:

“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”


[Concluding Religious Directions]

7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about[c] with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. 15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.


On your second post you ask drawn away from what? It's rather obvious this would be the Lord. Yet we also know the Lord will not give us too much temptation that we cannot handle.

Jamess 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 Cor 10:12 So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall. 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it. 14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to reasonable people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of blessing that we bless a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

The warning we see in Cor are the same a Hebrews (those sins that lead to death such as idolatry, murder, adultery, etc.).

Going back to the OP, the warning is not for common sins (sins that do not lead to death) that men might make and still be justified through the blood of Jesus and Promises of the Covenant.



Sandie

I added two question above.

Thanks
No. 40     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Sep 24, 2017 at 3:21 PM     
Fallen away from God, is a choice people make. It is exactly what happens in our Country right now. We threw God out of our Government , Schools Jobs, and Family. To bring God back, we all need to repent and let him be part of our lives.Share His Word at work , share it in our schools , share it in our Government and first of all in our Families. Start over. We need to be bold. Stand up together for God , for Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Love one another and preach the Gospel. God Bless you
No. 41     Reply: Re: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 12:28 AM     
Tulip427 wrote:

Fallen away from God, is a choice people make. It is exactly what happens in our Country right now. We threw God out of our Government , Schools Jobs, and Family. To bring God back, we all need to repent and let him be part of our lives.Share His Word at work , share it in our schools , share it in our Government and first of all in our Families. Start over. We need to be bold. Stand up together for God , for Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Love one another and preach the Gospel. God Bless you
:thumb_up:
No. 42     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 7:19 AM     
The fact that Insular has asked for prayer, and is concerned about his relationship with God is a very good indicator that his salvation is not in question. His assurance of salvation may be in question, the joy of his salvation may be in doubt, but he has not left God's people. Rather, he has turned to us. Do you believe in Jesus? Pray for Insular. He has asked, so shall he receive. I believe his salvation is secure.

John 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 
3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


What did the people do to be healed from the poison of the snake bite? They merely LOOKED at the serpent on the pole.

Isaiah 45:22  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 

Looking takes no effort, not even the lifting of one finger. Look to Jesus, and He will save you - BELIEVE it.

John 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned:

But Jesus even gets more specific -

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

A Christian concerned about is spiritual condition is a far cry from one who has left God altogether.
No. 43     Reply: Re: Hebrews chapter 6..   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 25, 2017 at 9:41 AM     
Jeff wrote: A Christian concerned about his spiritual condition is a far cry from one who has left God altogether.


Yes, I agree. A repentant and contrite heart is one that loves God. This is our first Commandment under the New Covenant. There is no departure from God if one feels failure or recognizes we are undeserving (all Christians acknowledge we are saved by faith through grace alone and not our works). This offers no 'excuse' to sin, but to the contrary -- a greater desire to operate 'only' in His Will in achieving full surrrender/full reliance upon the Lord (and not our own acts for one's salvation).


-----------------------------------------------------

Another --

On your two added questions:

On the OP: I think the OP is related to fear (not the question of OSAS) and I believe that fear is 'only' the beginning of knowledge. We grow from this point.

Another wrote: If I understand what your saying the action that caused them to need to be renewed to repentance is not given. So this is for the most part not understandable???


I think the chapter is completely understandable. Jeff created a new thread on Hebrews 6 that breaks down the chapter nicely for comprehension. Please if you can review it.

We do not stand in hypotheticals but in the Lord's assurance. Faith is not in our works (but in things unseen).

So allow me to ask you a question: Who are those that fell away and what does falling away mean to you? It it a failure to tithe, a failure of cleansings?

It is clear the sins of idolatry, adultery, murder, etc. is not of the Spirit of God nor one who follows God. Yet, we see among Christianity today, one's belief given away for what is of the world. This to me is the warning.

A Christian's faith in the Lord's assurances to us then includes one's belief in repentance and forgiveness. It is paramount, because we are nothing 'but' forgiven/justified -- not near God's perfection.

If a man thinks himself more or thinks he can work his way toward salvation, he is mistaken. Our fruits only show signs of true faith and good works follow where our heart follows, but what Christ did on the cross is complete. Human hands cannot add or take from this. So the thief on the cross did not 'steal' his way to paradise, but his belief in Christ is paramount to his own works.

mod to add scripture on the question I asked above about who were those that fell away -- (I believe this scripture completes my thoughts above as well about Hebrews 6):

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.



Thanks