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MeetChristians.com / Forums / Biblical & Theological Issues

No. 0     Original Topic:  He Shall Return in Like Manner   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Sep 2, 2017 at 7:02 AM   Viewed 1269 times     
I have always been told to gain a correct understanding of scripture we need to let scripture define scripture. Many New Testament passages use Old Testament quotes to either discuss the fulfillment of prophecy or to better define prophesies. In eschatological passages this is very true.

We find that NT passages are discussing the same prophetic events as OT passages, using the same language or similar language. In the OT when God is spoken of as coming in judgment upon a nation, he comes in the clouds.

Brother Simeon writes about the usage of coming in the clouds in judgment comparing OT references to that of the promise of Jesus soon return in the first century.






HE SHALL RETURN IN LIKE MANNER: A LOOK AT ACTS 1:11
by Simeon Edigbe

“ Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11)

First, the Old Covenant usage of the cloud coming of God always symbolized divine presence in Judgment over a nation.

“The burden against Egypt. Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst." (Isaiah 19:1).

Secondly, Christ’s coming in A.D. 70 is neither upon a physical cloud nor in a physical body. It too was a spiritual coming, yet real, and actual. Do recall that he doesn’t have a physical body in the heavens but a glorified one which is spiritual.

“Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30).

Thirdly the angel used the phrase “in like manner” a return in like manner means that he would return in a cloud. Which takes us back to the Apocalyptic use of the return on clouds.

"He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind. He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him—the dark rain clouds of the sky. Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced, with hailstones and bolts of lightning" (Psalm 18:9-12).

"The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters. He makes the clouds his chariot and rides on the wings of the wind" (Psalm 104:2-3).

"The great day of the LORD is near—near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the LORD is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. That day will be a day of wrath—a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness" (Zephaniah 1:14-15).

In Acts 1:9-11 Jesus did not take ride on a literal cloud past the galaxies scaling past Mars, Venus, Jupiter, etc. Clouds are used throughout the Bible in a symbolic manner.

Now see how Jesus states his return;

Speaking to His disciples Jesus said:
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matthew 16:27-28 )

Speaking to His disciples Jesus said:

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30)

Speaking to Caiaphas Jesus said:

Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64)

John wrote to the seven churches in Asia Minor:

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth (literally - "land") will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7)

How will this return be fulfilled in our time or sometime in the future when the return has been qualified:

Some who would not die until he returns
The tribes of the land refer to Israel which is a localized application of the prophecy.
The high priest would witness the return
That generation would not pass away till everything prophesied be fulfilled.

It can be disappointing to accept that we are not expecting a physical bodily return of Jesus on the earth but it is better to stay with truth than live with inherited error. The truth is that his return was on an Old covenant system that could not produce perfection and unveil His glory over the earth. We are now live in the age where His kingdom is spreading not in judgment but in justification and grace upon all men. We should look forward to his revelation in our hearts rather than look at the skies.
No. 1     Reply: Re: He Shall Return in Like Manner   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Sep 2, 2017 at 7:24 AM     
I've been thinking about these two references in considering the preterit view for some time and it makes sense to me that both of these are about the return of Jesus in judgement upon that living generation of Jews in 70AD.

Speaking to His disciples Jesus said:
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matthew 16:27-28 )


Speaking to Caiaphas Jesus said:

Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64)

In the first reference, Matthew 16:27-28, Jesus tells his disciples that some of them will live to see him coming in his kingdom. Some teachers say this refers to the transfiguration event six days later on the mountain referenced in, Matthew 17. But this event Jesus was not coming in his kingdom, he was displayed in the Father's glory.

The language here of him coming in his kingdom is one used elsewhere of his coming in judgment.

Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge says this,

" This appears to refer to the mediatorial kingdom which our Lord was about to set up, by the destruction of the Jewish nation and polity, and the diffusion of the gospel throughout the world. Matt_10:23, Matt_24:3, Matt_24:27-31, Matt_24:42, Matt_26:64; Mark_13:26; Luke_18:8, Luke_21:27-28"

Which is my understanding, these are all references to Christ coming to establish his kingdom. The coming of the Messianic kingdom is not an big bang into existence type of event. It came in a process of development.

It had begun, with the declaration of Jesus being the Messiah, the Lamb of God by John the Immerser, Elijah who prepared the way of the Lord.

It was founded by his selection of the Twelve, who would be his first emissaries to Israel. These emissaries were empowered to carry testimony to all of Israel on the day of Pentecost, to call all Jews to the Messiah.

The official start of the Messianic Kingdom was when the old covenant kingdom's center of rule, both of heaven and of earth, were destroyed in the judgment of the Jews, with the temple (seat of heaven's rule) and the city of Jerusalem, (the city of David, earth's rule) were both destroyed, 70AD. And the Jews who lived through this great tribulation were dispersed among the nations of the Roman Empire.

This is what Jesus was saying to his disciples, that some of them standing there that day would see this great epoch, this change of kingdom ages from the Old Mosaic covenant kingdom age to the new covenant kingdom age

In the second reference Jesus tells the high priest Caiaphas that he personally will see Jesus established as king in his kingdom. This also fits a first century fulfillment, within the life time of Caiaphas.

Some here accuse me of hinging my whole view of preterism on one passage, but here are two others that show a clear indication that the fulfillment of eschatology was in the first century, with in the life times of those who were alive when Jesus walked the earth.
No. 2     Reply: Re: He Shall Return in Like Manner   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Sep 3, 2017 at 8:05 PM     
Acts 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 
1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 


Jesus ascended into heaven from the Mount of Olives. He ascended physically. The angels stated that He would return in like manner. Not symbolically. Not spiritually. He ascended physically from the Mount of Olives, and He will descend physically to the Mount of Olives. Zechariah describes this fulfillment.

Zechariah 14:1  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 
14:2  For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 
14:3  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 
14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 
14:5  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 
14:6  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 
14:7  But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 
14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 
14:9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 
14:10  All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 
14:11  And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 
14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 
14:13  And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 
14:14  And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 
14:15  And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
 

Scripture interprets Scripture when we RIGHTLY divide the Word of Truth. Taking various verses out of context to build an argument for someone's personal interpretation (Psalms, Zephaniah in this instance) is way out of line. Jesus is going to come with His saints, as Zechariah stated in agreement with Revelation and Jude. There is also this thing about a plague (Zechariah 14:12) - very interesting indeed!
No. 3     Reply: Re: He Shall Return in Like Manner   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Sep 5, 2017 at 8:00 PM     
Jeff,

I'll look deeper at Zechariah. I have never addressed it, and not read anyone who has dealt with it in detail. It is interesting in its context.

I see the congruencey of the first couple of verses of chapter 14. It warrants a closer look.