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MeetChristians.com / Forums / Biblical & Theological Issues

No. 0     Original Topic:  RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 3, 2017 at 6:05 PM   Viewed 1663 times     

RESTORATION

by Charles S. Meek


Many Christians await the Second Coming in which Jesus restores all earthly things to an idyllic world with no sin, and no more death, crying, or pain—from a literal reading of Isaiah 11:1-9; 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-4. These Christians challenge full preterists with this: “Jesus cannot have come yet because we still see sin, suffering, evil, and death all around us.”

Let’s consider this challenge. Concerning sin, the Bible says that Jesus appeared at his First Advent to put away/remove sin (Hebrews 9:26; cf. Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 1:21; John 1:29; Acts 5:31; Romans 6:1-14; Colossians 1:22; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 3:5; Revelation 1:5). Did Jesus fail?

Think about that for just a moment. Jesus did not fail. He conquered the REIGN of sin over us, not the EXISTENCE of sin (Romans 6:6, 11, 14, 22)! This was the promise all along from Isaiah and Revelation regarding the new covenant world of heaven and earth—and it has been fulfilled. Sin continues to exist in the new age (Isaiah 65:20; Matthew 12:31-32; 1 John 1:8; Revelation 22:14-15)—indeed even after the Second Coming—but it is no longer master over God’s people.
No. 1     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 5, 2017 at 5:41 PM     
Acts 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 



How did Jesus answer the question?



No. 2     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 6, 2017 at 5:24 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Acts 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 

How did Jesus answer the question?
:coffeenpc:
No. 3     Reply: RESTORATION (full article)   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 5:54 AM     
RESTORATION

by Charles S. Meek



Many Christians await the Second Coming in which Jesus restores all earthly things to an idyllic world with no sin, and no more death, crying, or pain—from a literal reading of Isaiah 11:1-9; 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-4. These Christians challenge full preterists with this: “Jesus cannot have come yet because we still see sin, suffering, evil, and death all around us.”

Let’s consider this challenge. Concerning sin, the Bible says that Jesus appeared at his First Advent to put away/remove sin (Hebrews 9:26; cf. Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 1:21; John 1:29; Acts 5:31; Romans 6:1-14; Colossians 1:22; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 3:5; Revelation 1:5). Did Jesus fail?

Think about that for just a moment. Jesus did not fail. He conquered the REIGN of sin over us, not the EXISTENCE of sin (Romans 6:6, 11, 14, 22)! This was the promise all along from Isaiah and Revelation regarding the new covenant world of heaven and earth—and it has been fulfilled. Sin continues to exist in the new age (Isaiah 65:20; Matthew 12:31-32; 1 John 1:8; Revelation 22:14-15)—indeed even after the Second Coming—but it is no longer master over God’s people.
The Last Enemy (spiritual death, condemnation, alienation, or separation from God), which is the result of sin’s reign over us, has been conquered. We now have access to the presence of God (Hebrews 9). Even though we may still sin, it can no longer hold the true believer in its web. The objection of sin still being in the world not only fails to understand what needed to be restored (our relationship to God), but also fails to appreciate the depth of man’s earthly sinful nature, and fails to understand what Jesus has already accomplished.

Concerning death, the Bible says that Jesus destroyed/abolished death (2 Timothy 1:10; cf. Romans 6:23; Hebrews 2:14-15). Did He fail? Again, no. It is only in heaven where we will get final relief from sin, death, and suffering.

Indeed, not only spiritual death but also bodily death has been conquered. Jesus said, “If anyone keeps my word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51) Jesus made several such statements as found in the book of John, including, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:26) Every Christian understands this on one level, so should not have to ask the question: Why do we see death all around us? Jesus assured the believer that he or she will never die. Physical death on this earth is but a step into the afterlife for the faithful believer.

In Acts 3:18-24, Peter speaks of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS:

But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.” Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. (NKJV)

Here Peter refers to the Second Coming as the time of restoration, which we have argued was in AD 70. The passage is reminiscent of the statement by Jesus in Luke 21:22, in which He said that all prophecy would be fulfilled in his generation. Peter confirms this time frame, and places these events specifically in his day—reinforcing what he just stated a few verses earlier in Acts chapter 2 about the last days being in his time—as well as similar statements he would later make in his epistles.

Peter seems to be lumping together the First Coming and the Second Coming and applying them to his own time. This was the time of the restoration of all things (verse 21)! If this seems impossible, perhaps you have had in your mind a concept of restoration that is not biblically accurate.

The word translated in some Bibles as “restoration” (verse 21) is translated as “restitution” in others, including Young’s Literal Translation. Restitution, defined as compensation for what was lost rather than returning what was lost, better captures what happened in AD 70. Restitution is about justice! Verses 23-25 are clearly about justice and judgment. So, what some Christians consider to be the restoration of the planet, at least from this passage, is really about restitution in AD 70. Author Glenn Hill argues the case for past fulfillment thusly:

1. Since the "times of restitution” were prophesied by the prophets (Acts 3:24), and
2. Since their prophecies have all been fulfilled (Luke 21:22; Acts 3:24),
3. Then the prophesied “times of restitution” have been fulfilled too.
4. Since Jesus would return when “the times of restitution” arrived (Acts 3:21),
5. Then Jesus has come again too!

Will we return to a time on earth in which nobody sins? No. Does the physical creation need restoring? The answer, again, in our view, is NO. The physical creation was pronounced very good by God himself (Genesis 1:31)! As suggested in previous discussions, what happened at the Fall was the emergence or manifestation of mankind’s sin, and thus our separation from God (Isaiah 59:2). While it had ramifications about man’s life afterward and how he related to his surroundings, it was not about the decline of the physical creation. Adam and Eve did not mess up God’s earth; they messed up their relationship with God. The physical creation was not corrupted by the fall of Adam and Eve, and hence is not in need of restoration. In addition to other exegetical errors of futurists, we propose that restorationism—defined as a future return to an imagined pre-Fall utopian earthly world—is an error too. Christianity explains history as a linear progression rather than the cyclical view of eastern religions.

Thus, the new creation should be understood as a spiritual restoration. In 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Galatians 6:15 Paul explains that believers are already NEW CREATIONS Christ. Revelation promised, in over 30 passages, that the events described therein would come to pass soon after John wrote the book (“must shortly take place,” “about to happen,” “the time is near,” etc.). These things were fulfilled in the first century through God’s judgment against Old Covenant Israel in AD 70, ushering in with finality the new covenant kingdom. We rejoice that our restoration is complete.

(For more detail about restoration, see chapter 13 of my book CHRISTIAN HOPE THROUGH FULFILLED PROPHECY. See the summary and reviews at Amazon.com. Also see articles on related issues, such as the “New Heaven and New Earth” and the “Biblical Last Days” at my websites:


https://prophecyquestions.com/2014/02/01/articles-by-charles-meek


https://www.facebook.com/EvangelicalPreterism


And check out my book CHRISTIAN HOPE THROUGH FULFILLED PROPHECY at Amazon.
No. 4     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 6:14 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Acts 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 



How did Jesus answer the question?




Lets look at a fuller context, what was Jesus telling his disciples when they asked this question and what was the relevancy of their question to what Jesus was telling them?

Act 1:1-8
1 Indeed, O Theophilus, I made the first report concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, 2 until the day He was taken up, having given directions to the apostles whom He elected, through the Holy Spirit, 3 to whom also He presented Himself living after His suffering, by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God.

4 And having met with them, He charged them not to leave Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father, "which you heard of Me; 5 for John indeed baptized in water, but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days after."

6 Then, indeed, coming together they questioned Him, saying, Lord, do You restore the kingdom to Israel at this time?

7 And He said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons which the Father placed in His own authority; 8 but you will receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you, and you will be witnesses of Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

The context of the narrative gives us a better understanding than just two verses taken out of context.

Jesus is about to ascend to the Father. He has spent 40 days with the disciples proving that he is truly alive after his death and resurrection. He also taught them about the kingdom of God.

So it was a natural question for the disciples to ask about Jesus establishing his kingdom at that time. Jesus was about to ascend to the Father to take his throne, the Davidic throne upon which the Messiah sits and reigns from for ever, according to all of the prophesies.

Jesus had taught them about the events to come before the end of the age, and his return. These signs had not yet started, so they were jumping the gun a bit here.

What Jesus is telling them about at this stage of the coming kingdom was what was most needed. He was telling them to wait in Jerusalem for the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit, for the empowerment of the Spirit. That once they received the immersion into the Holy Spirit they would then be the witnesses to carry the gospel of the kingdom through out the world. Which is one of the sign events that Jesus taught them would happen before the end came.

Notice that text says that the disciples standing there that day, would receive the Holy Spirit and they would be empowered and they would carry the gospel of the kingdom through out the world. Nothing here about future generations doing this.

If you hold that Christ's return is still future, then you must also hold that the gospel is still to be carried through out the world, and must also hold that people must be empowered, baptized in the Holy Spirit to be a witness through out the world. Otherwise you are doing great damage to the context of this passage, picking and choosing what you accept and what you reject. But fear not, you are in plenty of company, John Darby did the same thing. Just a side note observation....

No. 5     Reply: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 8, 2017 at 4:30 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?



How did Jesus answer the question?




Lets look at a fuller context, what was Jesus telling his disciples when they asked this question and what was the relevancy of their question to what Jesus was telling them?

Act 1:1-8
1 Indeed, O Theophilus, I made the first report concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, 2 until the day He was taken up, having given directions to the apostles whom He elected, through the Holy Spirit, 3 to whom also He presented Himself living after His suffering, by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God.

4 And having met with them, He charged them not to leave Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father, "which you heard of Me; 5 for John indeed baptized in water, but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days after."

6 Then, indeed, coming together they questioned Him, saying, Lord, do You restore the kingdom to Israel at this time?

7 And He said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons which the Father placed in His own authority; 8 but you will receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you, and you will be witnesses of Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

The context of the narrative gives us a better understanding than just two verses taken out of context.


Can you explain how the verses were taken out of context? And by the way - I only quoted one verse - the verse with the question. I think the context speaks for itself. But if you want the entire context, we would have to go to the end of Luke's gospel to get the complete recap of his earlier writing about Christ' ascension to which he refers here in the beginning of Acts. I really don't think we need to squabble over gnat hairs. The bigger issue is the question I asked, which you seem to have avoided. Let's see if you answered.

Kent wrote:
Jesus is about to ascend to the Father. He has spent 40 days with the disciples proving that he is truly alive after his death and resurrection. He also taught them about the kingdom of God.


We know about this, and it does not answer the question.

Kent wrote:
So it was a natural question for the disciples to ask about Jesus establishing his kingdom at that time.


Yes it was natural for the disciples to ask the question. How did Jesus respond to it, is what I asked.

Jesus was about to ascend to the Father to take his throne, the Davidic throne upon which the Messiah sits and reigns from for ever, according to all of the prophesies.


Okay, I'm with you that Jesus was about to ascend to the Father. It says that in the verses that follow. What the text does not say is what you imply here - about the Davidic throne. That is your own personal assertion, and it is not found in the text. You have to assume that on the basis of what you have chosen to believe, and not by the text itself. So how did Jesus answer the question? That is what I asked.

Kent wrote:
Jesus had taught them about the events to come before the end of the age, and his return. These signs had not yet started, so they were jumping the gun a bit here.


They had asked about the signs of His return during His earthly ministry, which was answered in Matthew 24 as well as in Mark and Luke. But now they have a resurrected Lord. That changes everything. Now that Christ is resurrected, will He at that time restore the kingdom to Israel? It is a legitimate question, considering that Jesus had just conquered death.

Kent wrote:
What Jesus is telling them about at this stage of the coming kingdom was what was most needed. He was telling them to wait in Jerusalem for the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit, for the empowerment of the Spirit.



You left something out, Kent.

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

If the kingdom was not going to be restored to Israel, this would have been the opportunity for Jesus to set them straight. Rather, He told them it was not for them to know when that time would be. The implication is that their question was legitimate, and that the time would come for the kingdom to be restored to Israel. It was merely not for them to know, because God the Father has reserved that information to Himself.

Kent wrote:
That once they received the immersion into the Holy Spirit they would then be the witnesses to carry the gospel of the kingdom through out the world. Which is one of the sign events that Jesus taught them would happen before the end came.

Notice that text says that the disciples standing there that day, would receive the Holy Spirit and they would be empowered and they would carry the gospel of the kingdom through out the world. Nothing here about future generations doing this.


You never really answered the question. Rather, you resorted to argue for preterism. Did those first disciple really carry the gospel to the whole world? We have an entire history of missionary movements that disagree with that assumption. We have nations and people groups who will testify that they have never heard the gospel until just a few years ago.

I don't know if I can provide other passages about people believing the gospel because of future generations, but let this suffice for now:

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


Jesus prayed not only for His immediate disciples, but also for us, who believe because we have heard from others, who also heard from others before them; or because we have the words in written form in our Bibles. And because of the witness and testimony of ALL of Christ's disciples throughout history, people continue to believe that God has sent Jesus Christ into the world to save us from sin and death.

Kent wrote:
If you hold that Christ's return is still future, then you must also hold that the gospel is still to be carried through out the world, and must also hold that people must be empowered, baptized in the Holy Spirit to be a witness through out the world.


And you deny this? Is that where preterism leads?

No. 6     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 9, 2017 at 6:20 PM     
Jeff,

I did answer you, but you want to stick on one phrase and ignore the context of what was happening and being said in total.

Jesus told them that the time was not now, that he would not be restoring the kingdom at that immediate time. They knew it was near, because Jesus had already told them it would occur in their lifetime.

So after the resurrected Jesus spent 40 days explaining in detail the kingdom of God, the disciples expected that time, that day even to be the start of the events Jesus had taught them about.

Instead he says to them, basically, "No not now. This stage is you waiting in Jerusalem for the promised Holy Spirit, then going through out the Jewish/Roman world making disciples."

That is my understanding, keeping everything in the proper context, so this is my answer.
No. 7     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 9, 2017 at 7:44 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff,

I did answer you, but you want to stick on one phrase and ignore the context of what was happening and being said in total.


Your above statement is the best answer I will get. It appears that you have tunnel vision.

Kent wrote:
Jesus told them that the time was not now, that he would not be restoring the kingdom at that immediate time. They knew it was near, because Jesus had already told them it would occur in their lifetime.


Here you are reading too much into the text. But I don't think you can see it any other way. But just to test and see, go back and look at what you wrote: "They knew..." You assume too much in those two words. After having been with Jesus for the years they thought they knew Him, how many times did He completely go against everything they thought they knew about Him? After Peter was ready to fight and die for Him, and He told Peter to put the sword away - did Peter really know Him? Or is it any wonder Peter denied knowing Him? Yet you say, "They knew". That is a stretch, to say the least. And you seem convinced of it.


So after the resurrected Jesus spent 40 days explaining in detail the kingdom of God, the disciples expected that time, that day even to be the start of the events Jesus had taught them about.


WHERE ARE THE PASSAGES THAT SUPPORT THIS? I don't remember reading anything in the New Testament where Jesus explained the details of the kingdom from the time of His resurrection to the time of His ascension. Or are you assuming?

Kent wrote:
Instead he says to them, basically, "No not now. This stage is you waiting in Jerusalem for the promised Holy Spirit, then going through out the Jewish/Roman world making disciples."


Where did Jesus say anything about a stage? They specifically asked if Jesus would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. They knew the prophecies of the restoration of Israel. They were specific to their NATION. And JESUS knew what they meant. HE did not deny the validity of their question. He simply said that God the Father has reserved that information to Himself.

Acts 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 
1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 


No. 9     Reply: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 5:28 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff,

I did answer you, but you want to stick on one phrase and ignore the context of what was happening and being said in total.


Your above statement is the best answer I will get. It appears that you have tunnel vision.


No tunnel vision, just considering the whole passage, along with the whole context of the gospel of the kingdom. The one phrase you quote, and want to center on is not a stand alone statement, it has a context which many misconstrue because they do not consider the context.


Kent wrote:
Jesus told them that the time was not now, that he would not be restoring the kingdom at that immediate time. They knew it was near, because Jesus had already told them it would occur in their lifetime.


Here you are reading too much into the text. But I don't think you can see it any other way. But just to test and see, go back and look at what you wrote: "They knew..." You assume too much in those two words. After having been with Jesus for the years they thought they knew Him, how many times did He completely go against everything they thought they knew about Him? After Peter was ready to fight and die for Him, and He told Peter to put the sword away - did Peter really know Him? Or is it any wonder Peter denied knowing Him? Yet you say, "They knew". That is a stretch, to say the least. And you seem convinced of it.


They knew along with all of Israel, that this was the time period that Daniel wrote about when the Messiah would come and establish his kingdom. They knew that Jesus was the Messiah. They knew that Jesus would establish his kingdom with in their lifetime because He said it would happen. They knew the secrets of the kingdom as Jesus taught them.




So after the resurrected Jesus spent 40 days explaining in detail the kingdom of God, the disciples expected that time, that day even to be the start of the events Jesus had taught them about.


WHERE ARE THE PASSAGES THAT SUPPORT THIS? I don't remember reading anything in the New Testament where Jesus explained the details of the kingdom from the time of His resurrection to the time of His ascension. Or are you assuming?


Third verse of chapter 1, easy to find when you read the whole context of a passage:

1 Indeed, O Theophilus, I made the first report concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach, 2 until the day He was taken up, having given directions to the apostles whom He elected, through the Holy Spirit, 3 to whom also He presented Himself living after His suffering, by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God.

40 days from his resurrection to his ascension, and Jesus spoke to them about the things concerning the kingdom of God. It is a simple assumption that this talk would cause the disciples to think that now was the promised time.



Kent wrote:
Instead he says to them, basically, "No not now. This stage is you waiting in Jerusalem for the promised Holy Spirit, then going through out the Jewish/Roman world making disciples."


Where did Jesus say anything about a stage? They specifically asked if Jesus would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. They knew the prophecies of the restoration of Israel. They were specific to their NATION. And JESUS knew what they meant. HE did not deny the validity of their question. He simply said that God the Father has reserved that information to Himself.

Acts 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 
1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 




NO Jesus did not use the word "stage", that is me trying to explain things. And your point is? Jesus told them, no, at this time the kingdom will not be restored. At this time you wait in Jerusalem, to be empowered by the Holy Spirit, then you will go out and fulfill part of what I told you must happen before the end, take the gospel of the kingdom to all of the Roman/Jewish world.
No. 10     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 8:39 AM     
Hi Kent

I believe Jeff missed your point in post 3.
I find this subject interesting, and I love both you and Jeff, and don't want this to get out of control.

Kent posted
The word translated in some Bibles as “restoration” (verse 21) is translated as “restitution” in others, including Young’s Literal Translation. Restitution, defined as compensation for what was lost rather than returning what was lost, better captures what happened in AD 70. Restitution is about justice! Verses 23-25 are clearly about justice and judgment. So, what some Christians consider to be the restoration of the planet, at least from this passage, is really about restitution in AD 70. Author Glenn Hill argues the case for past fulfillment thusly:


Kent if what you believe is the restoration/restitution then let us stay to that point.

History does not seem to fit this idea fully. Wars/earthquakes/floods. I have not read Josephus's writings. Not to say that even if Josephus said "66 AD to 73 AD was the great tribulation" would I accept that as true. It has to do with His position at the time. I could see some of His writings as a form of propaganda. We have people today saying "look at what is happening now". "We must be in the end time". Josephus could have done some of the same. Not for the same reason.

My point is there seems to be missing events . Wars/earthquakes/floods.

There was the "war" there was a couple earthquakes recorded in the bible. Just what Jesus was teaching does not seem to fit just what happened in the 66 AD to 73 AD
Jesus also said Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What was the date that Josephus wrote that this happened? In 70 AD or 73AD??

Thanks

No. 11     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 8:54 AM     
https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html

Hi Kent is this site reliable?

It give the date as 66 AD as to "Chariots in the Clouds"

Thanks

No. 12     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 6:50 PM     
another84 wrote:

Hi Kent

I believe Jeff missed your point in post 3.
I find this subject interesting, and I love both you and Jeff, and don't want this to get out of control.

I like Jeff too, even when we disagree.



Kent posted
The word translated in some Bibles as “restoration” (verse 21) is translated as “restitution” in others, including Young’s Literal Translation. Restitution, defined as compensation for what was lost rather than returning what was lost, better captures what happened in AD 70. Restitution is about justice! Verses 23-25 are clearly about justice and judgment. So, what some Christians consider to be the restoration of the planet, at least from this passage, is really about restitution in AD 70. Author Glenn Hill argues the case for past fulfillment thusly:


Kent if what you believe is the restoration/restitution then let us stay to that point.


I just shared an interesting article from Charles Meek, these are his words. I'm still considering what he said as to whether it fits the revelation of scripture.

But Jeff went another way, so I am trying to answer his question to me. Not sure I am doing a good job of communicating or if he is just being obstinate.



History does not seem to fit this idea fully. Wars/earthquakes/floods. I have not read Josephus's writings. Not to say that even if Josephus said "66 AD to 73 AD was the great tribulation" would I accept that as true. It has to do with His position at the time. I could see some of His writings as a form of propaganda. We have people today saying "look at what is happening now". "We must be in the end time". Josephus could have done some of the same. Not for the same reason.

My point is there seems to be missing events . Wars/earthquakes/floods.

There was the "war" there was a couple earthquakes recorded in the bible. Just what Jesus was teaching does not seem to fit just what happened in the 66 AD to 73 AD
Jesus also said Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What was the date that Josephus wrote that this happened? In 70 AD or 73AD??

Thanks


His history of the Wars of the Jews is dated around 75AD. He was a general of the Israeli army in Galilee at the start of the war and after being captured was kept with the Roman army and so was a first hand witness to some of the events. In being commissioned to write the report of the war he did use reports from others who were there.

It is worthy to note that he was not a follower of the Nazarene and so did not write in support of the Messianic movement.

He did phrase somethings to keep from being crucified, by honoring the Roman Emperor. As he stated in his introduction to the Wars of the Jews, he was trying to write as truthful of a history of that time as possible, there being other histories that were not directly about Israel, where his history is centrally focused on the Jews and Israel.

If you want a free reading of the Wars of the Jews, you can find it here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-7.htm

As to the veracity of his report, most scholars of the time period accept his writings as being authentic and authoritative.

If these events took place today, would not all the media carry the news? Sure there would be some slant to it, based on that news agencies underlying philosophy, but it would still be fact based.

So do I accept Josephus history.
No. 13     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 7:13 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff,

I did answer you, but you want to stick on one phrase and ignore the context of what was happening and being said in total.


Your above statement is the best answer I will get. It appears that you have tunnel vision.


No tunnel vision, just considering the whole passage, along with the whole context of the gospel of the kingdom.


Yes, tunnel vision. You say you consider the whole passage, and I do not deny that. However, you consider the way you do because of your problem with the phrase, "this generation." You have chosen one interpretation, and because of that, you have to willfully ignore everything to the contrary, or write off everything in some fashion or another. You come off as if you have the true answer, while the rest of us are under the spell of "Darbyism" or abide in some other form of ignorance. But your choice has you missing out on so much! You never seem to address the Scriptures that are utterly counter to your theological standpoint.

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That is only one example. Jesus says that until the times (plural - times) of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Jerusalem will be trodden down by Gentiles. This is history, and this is presently occurring. You are missing the obvious while building an entire universe on obscurity.



No. 14     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 11, 2017 at 5:19 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff,

I did answer you, but you want to stick on one phrase and ignore the context of what was happening and being said in total.


Your above statement is the best answer I will get. It appears that you have tunnel vision.


No tunnel vision, just considering the whole passage, along with the whole context of the gospel of the kingdom.


Yes, tunnel vision. You say you consider the whole passage, and I do not deny that. However, you consider the way you do because of your problem with the phrase, "this generation." You have chosen one interpretation, and because of that, you have to willfully ignore everything to the contrary, or write off everything in some fashion or another. You come off as if you have the true answer, while the rest of us are under the spell of "Darbyism" or abide in some other form of ignorance. But your choice has you missing out on so much! You never seem to address the Scriptures that are utterly counter to your theological standpoint.

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That is only one example. Jesus says that until the times (plural - times) of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Jerusalem will be trodden down by Gentiles. This is history, and this is presently occurring. You are missing the obvious while building an entire universe on obscurity.





In reading the whole of the context of the Olivet Discourse, "this generation" means the lifetime of the disciples. Yes, that is how I read it. There are no future group of people mentioned in the discourse.

Jesus was giving detailed information to four of his disciples, he was telling them what to expect in their future life. They were told to be ready to leave Jerusalem and Judea for safety. There is no other group of people outside of their generation mentioned through out the discourse. That is how it reads.

So "this generation" means the generation of the disciples who Jesus was talking to, or within their lifetime.

I'm "stuck" on this because this is the truth I read. I don't have to redefine anything, just read it. I don't have to create a gap in time or some other scheme to make my ideas fit, just read the narrative and consider the context for what it says.

So yes, the truth I read is that Jesus told his disciples that the whole of the Olivet Discourse would take place during their life time.

Do you find a clear indication of some future group of people, beyond the life time of the disciples, in the Olivet Discourse?

The only argument I see from you is that you don't think Jesus came yet, that this is not what life in the world should be like if Jesus had returned, therefor the Olivet Discourse events must be in the future.
No. 15     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Verbatim   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Aug 11, 2017 at 12:27 PM     
Kent...where is Lord Jesus now? What is He doing?
No. 16     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 11, 2017 at 5:38 PM     
Verbatim wrote:

Kent...where is Lord Jesus now? What is He doing?


Jesus sits upon this throne and is bringing his kingdom rule to all men in all generations.
No. 17     Reply: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 11, 2017 at 7:35 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff,

I did answer you, but you want to stick on one phrase and ignore the context of what was happening and being said in total.


Your above statement is the best answer I will get. It appears that you have tunnel vision.


No tunnel vision, just considering the whole passage, along with the whole context of the gospel of the kingdom.


Yes, tunnel vision. You say you consider the whole passage, and I do not deny that. However, you consider the way you do because of your problem with the phrase, "this generation." You have chosen one interpretation, and because of that, you have to willfully ignore everything to the contrary, or write off everything in some fashion or another. You come off as if you have the true answer, while the rest of us are under the spell of "Darbyism" or abide in some other form of ignorance. But your choice has you missing out on so much! You never seem to address the Scriptures that are utterly counter to your theological standpoint.

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


That is only one example. Jesus says that until the times (plural - times) of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Jerusalem will be trodden down by Gentiles. This is history, and this is presently occurring. You are missing the obvious while building an entire universe on obscurity.





In reading the whole of the context of the Olivet Discourse, "this generation" means the lifetime of the disciples. Yes, that is how I read it. There are no future group of people mentioned in the discourse.


We've been through the various interpretations of the word, "generation." And I remember from our previous discussion that you rejected all definitions of "generation" except for one, meaning the people who were living at that time. So you need to do a self-check on this. Is your choice the right choice? Or is there even a small possibility that when Jesus used the word, "generation" that He may have meant something more than just the people who were alive and listening to Him at that time?

Jesus used the word, "generation" more than once.

Matthew 16:1  The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 
16:2  He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 
16:3  And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 
16:4  A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. 


Here Jesus is addressing Pharisees and Sadducees. They were seeking a sign, and He said a wicked and adulterous "generation" seeks after a sign. Because this specifically addresses the Pharisees and Sadducees, I would doubt that Jesus is addressing all who were alive at that time. Christ's use of "generation" here is more in line with a kind of people (wicked and adulterous) rather than a time frame of 20 to 40 years.

Earlier Jesus called the Pharisees a generation of vipers.

Matthew 12:34  O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 

Now we know that the generation of people that are called "Israel" still exist today. And this generation is no different than the generation that rejected their Messiah, for they still reject Him to this day - in a sense, they are one and the same. So in that sense, the term, "generation," as Jesus applied it to the Pharisees and Sadducees, might very plausibly also apply to Israel as a nation. And by the way, I just did learn this now. If you search the word, "generation" on e-sword, and only in the gospels and acts (KJV), you will find that when Jesus used "generation" He was never all inclusive of all people living at that time. He was very precise - and He never used it toward His own disciples.
No. 18     Reply: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 11, 2017 at 8:58 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Verbatim wrote:

Kent...where is Lord Jesus now? What is He doing?


Jesus sits upon this throne and is bringing his kingdom rule to all men in all generations.


Did He return to the earth before this?
No. 19     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 11, 2017 at 9:02 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff,

I did answer you, but you want to stick on one phrase and ignore the context of what was happening and being said in total.


Your above statement is the best answer I will get. It appears that you have tunnel vision.


No tunnel vision, just considering the whole passage, along with the whole context of the gospel of the kingdom.


Yes, tunnel vision. You say you consider the whole passage, and I do not deny that. However, you consider the way you do because of your problem with the phrase, "this generation." You have chosen one interpretation, and because of that, you have to willfully ignore everything to the contrary, or write off everything in some fashion or another. You come off as if you have the true answer, while the rest of us are under the spell of "Darbyism" or abide in some other form of ignorance. But your choice has you missing out on so much! You never seem to address the Scriptures that are utterly counter to your theological standpoint.

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


That is only one example. Jesus says that until the times (plural - times) of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Jerusalem will be trodden down by Gentiles. This is history, and this is presently occurring. You are missing the obvious while building an entire universe on obscurity.





In reading the whole of the context of the Olivet Discourse, "this generation" means the lifetime of the disciples. Yes, that is how I read it. There are no future group of people mentioned in the discourse.


We've been through the various interpretations of the word, "generation." And I remember from our previous discussion that you rejected all definitions of "generation" except for one, meaning the people who were living at that time. So you need to do a self-check on this. Is your choice the right choice? Or is there even a small possibility that when Jesus used the word, "generation" that He may have meant something more than just the people who were alive and listening to Him at that time?

Jesus used the word, "generation" more than once.

Matthew 16:1  The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 
16:2  He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 
16:3  And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 
16:4  A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. 


Here Jesus is addressing Pharisees and Sadducees. They were seeking a sign, and He said a wicked and adulterous "generation" seeks after a sign. Because this specifically addresses the Pharisees and Sadducees, I would doubt that Jesus is addressing all who were alive at that time. Christ's use of "generation" here is more in line with a kind of people (wicked and adulterous) rather than a time frame of 20 to 40 years.

Earlier Jesus called the Pharisees a generation of vipers.

Matthew 12:34  O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 

Now we know that the generation of people that are called "Israel" still exist today. And this generation is no different than the generation that rejected their Messiah, for they still reject Him to this day - in a sense, they are one and the same. So in that sense, the term, "generation," as Jesus applied it to the Pharisees and Sadducees, might very plausibly also apply to Israel as a nation. And by the way, I just did learn this now. If you search the word, "generation" on e-sword, and only in the gospels and acts (KJV), you will find that when Jesus used "generation" He was never all inclusive of all people living at that time. He was very precise - and He never used it toward His own disciples.
:goodpost:
No. 20     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 12, 2017 at 3:56 PM     
Context, Context, Context....defines a term that is used within it.

The context of the Olivet Discourse in which we find the phrase used, "Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. "

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.

Luke 21:31-32
31 So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.

Jeff, you want to define "this generation" to mean all of Israel for all time from Israel to the end of all time. But the context does not support your definition.

The context is that Jesus was talking to his four disciples, Peter, James, John and Andrew. He was answering their one question, when will these things be and what is the sign of your coming and the end of the age.

Within the context of Jesus answer, he constant tells them what they will experience and what they should be prepared for. Persecutions, beatings, imprisonments, deaths. False prophets and Messiahs. The army camped around Jerusalem.

Why? So that they would not lose heart and turn away from following the Messiah. So that they would not be deceived. So that they would know when to leave Jerusalem and Judea for the place of safety.

The four disciples are addressed as "you" through out the discourse. At no time was any one else addressed, except for "they who are in Judea and Jerusalem" when the armies camp about the city. And the world to whom the gospel is carried.

I addressed this in a long post, completely in context going through all three records of the discourse.

My firm conclusion is that "this generation" considering all the context of the Olivet Discourse means those living in the life time of the four disciples who were sitting there in the garden with Jesus that day.

Jesus was not talking to the people of Israel. He did not tell his four disciples to tell this to the people of Israel. If this had been a talk Jesus gave in the temple, for all to hear, I might be convinced that "this generation" means Israel in general. But it was not. In fact no where in the discourse does Jesus tell his four disciples to warn Israel about any of this.

This was a private talk, Jesus explaining secrets of the kingdom to his chosen disciples, directly answering their question. His only reference is to them and the other disciples, so that they were forewarned of what they would experience. "This generation" means with in the lifetime of the disciples.
No. 21     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 12, 2017 at 9:26 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Context, Context, Context....defines a term that is used within it.

The context of the Olivet Discourse in which we find the phrase used, "Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. "

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.


Yes context. And it cannot be discounted that Jesus cursed the fig tree the day before; and on this very morning (the same day of the Olivet Discourse) the disciples saw that it had withered. (Mark 11:12-14, 20). It is no stretch that Jesus came unto His own, looking for fruit, and found none. His cursing of the fig tree was a physical parable of that reality. It was no small event. And here Jesus explains the parable of the fig tree, which was still fresh on their minds. That's the context. Jesus is not finished with the fig tree, and there will come a time when it will put forth its tender branches.

Matthew 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 
24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors
24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

Luke 21:31-32
31 So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.


Luke's coverage is not the same as Matthew and Mark's. Luke specifically tells of the siege of Jerusalem in more specific terms so that there is no misunderstanding of that event. He does not mention the abomination of desolation which both Mark and Matthew specify. But he does mention the "times of the Gentiles." Matthew and Mark do not. I would not include Luke's description here as it tends to deviate by focusing in on things not mentioned in the other two, and generalizes where the other two are specific.

Jeff, you want to define "this generation" to mean all of Israel for all time from Israel to the end of all time. But the context does not support your definition.


If it was just "Jeff" and what he wants to define, that would be one thing. But it is not just "Jeff." It is Matthew, Mark, Jesus, Casandie, PeaceLover, and others who have been posting here besides myself who have been trying to get through to you and your fixation on one limited definition of the word, "generation" that forces you into seeing all other prophecy as somehow fulfilled, even to the point of denying that God will indeed destroy sin and death totally. It seems that you actually believe that the last enemy has already been destroyed. One word, a single fixation on one definition, and all history has changed for you. And again, it is in the divided, crumbled Roman empire aka the European states and all their colonies around the world per Daniel 2, that the stone cut out without hands will crush all this world's kingdoms and grow into that everlasting kingdom to come, and Rome was yet not divided during Christ's earthly ministry. His kingdom is still to come. You are wrong on a variety of accounts.

No. 22     Reply: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 12, 2017 at 10:33 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Context, Context, Context....defines a term that is used within it.

The context of the Olivet Discourse in which we find the phrase used, "Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. "

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.


Yes context. And it cannot be discounted that Jesus cursed the fig tree the day before; and on this very morning (the same day of the Olivet Discourse) the disciples saw that it had withered. (Mark 11:12-14, 20). It is no stretch that Jesus came unto His own, looking for fruit, and found none. His cursing of the fig tree was a physical parable of that reality. It was no small event. And here Jesus explains the parable of the fig tree, which was still fresh on their minds. That's the context. Jesus is not finished with the fig tree, and there will come a time when it will put forth its tender branches.

Matthew 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 
24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors
24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

Luke 21:31-32
31 So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.


Luke's coverage is not the same as Matthew and Mark's. Luke specifically tells of the siege of Jerusalem in more specific terms so that there is no misunderstanding of that event. He does not mention the abomination of desolation which both Mark and Matthew specify. But he does mention the "times of the Gentiles." Matthew and Mark do not. I would not include Luke's description here as it tends to deviate by focusing in on things not mentioned in the other two, and generalizes where the other two are specific.

Jeff, you want to define "this generation" to mean all of Israel for all time from Israel to the end of all time. But the context does not support your definition.


If it was just "Jeff" and what he wants to define, that would be one thing. But it is not just "Jeff." It is Matthew, Mark, Jesus, Casandie, PeaceLover, and others who have been posting here besides myself who have been trying to get through to you and your fixation on one limited definition of the word, "generation" that forces you into seeing all other prophecy as somehow fulfilled, even to the point of denying that God will indeed destroy sin and death totally. It seems that you actually believe that the last enemy has already been destroyed. One word, a single fixation on one definition, and all history has changed for you. And again, it is in the divided, crumbled Roman empire aka the European states and all their colonies around the world per Daniel 2, that the stone cut out without hands will crush all this world's kingdoms and grow into that everlasting kingdom to come, and Rome was yet not divided during Christ's earthly ministry. His kingdom is still to come. You are wrong on a variety of accounts.



Amen Jeff! (in complete agreement with all you have said here)!

And Kent if you are going to base an entire separate religion on one topic (as your beliefs in preterism is all you discuss here on MC) and base this belief on one word (generation)...

Then at least seek to understand the word and it's different definitions and meanings. You seem to not understand that generation is used metaphorically not just literally and suggest a lack of intelligence of others and you seem to fail in understanding the 'context, context, context, yourself (while faulting others here):

From Strong's concordance:

Strong's Concordance
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation

Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin from ginomai

Definition: race, family, generation
NASB Translation
generation (32), generations (10), kind (1).

STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8 ); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).


No. 23     Reply: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 13, 2017 at 5:47 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Context, Context, Context....defines a term that is used within it.

The context of the Olivet Discourse in which we find the phrase used, "Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. "

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.


Yes context. And it cannot be discounted that Jesus cursed the fig tree the day before; and on this very morning (the same day of the Olivet Discourse) the disciples saw that it had withered. (Mark 11:12-14, 20). It is no stretch that Jesus came unto His own, looking for fruit, and found none. His cursing of the fig tree was a physical parable of that reality. It was no small event. And here Jesus explains the parable of the fig tree, which was still fresh on their minds. That's the context. Jesus is not finished with the fig tree, and there will come a time when it will put forth its tender branches.

Matthew 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 
24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors
24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

Luke 21:31-32
31 So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.


Luke's coverage is not the same as Matthew and Mark's. Luke specifically tells of the siege of Jerusalem in more specific terms so that there is no misunderstanding of that event. He does not mention the abomination of desolation which both Mark and Matthew specify. But he does mention the "times of the Gentiles." Matthew and Mark do not. I would not include Luke's description here as it tends to deviate by focusing in on things not mentioned in the other two, and generalizes where the other two are specific.

Jeff, you want to define "this generation" to mean all of Israel for all time from Israel to the end of all time. But the context does not support your definition.


If it was just "Jeff" and what he wants to define, that would be one thing. But it is not just "Jeff." It is Matthew, Mark, Jesus, Casandie, PeaceLover, and others who have been posting here besides myself who have been trying to get through to you and your fixation on one limited definition of the word, "generation" that forces you into seeing all other prophecy as somehow fulfilled, even to the point of denying that God will indeed destroy sin and death totally. It seems that you actually believe that the last enemy has already been destroyed. One word, a single fixation on one definition, and all history has changed for you. And again, it is in the divided, crumbled Roman empire aka the European states and all their colonies around the world per Daniel 2, that the stone cut out without hands will crush all this world's kingdoms and grow into that everlasting kingdom to come, and Rome was yet not divided during Christ's earthly ministry. His kingdom is still to come. You are wrong on a variety of accounts.



Jeff,

The narrative reads that these events would happen to the disciples, they would live through them. This is the truth of the narrative. This is the gospel, scriptural truth I accept.

No. 24     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 13, 2017 at 5:53 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Context, Context, Context....defines a term that is used within it.

The context of the Olivet Discourse in which we find the phrase used, "Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. "

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.


Yes context. And it cannot be discounted that Jesus cursed the fig tree the day before; and on this very morning (the same day of the Olivet Discourse) the disciples saw that it had withered. (Mark 11:12-14, 20). It is no stretch that Jesus came unto His own, looking for fruit, and found none. His cursing of the fig tree was a physical parable of that reality. It was no small event. And here Jesus explains the parable of the fig tree, which was still fresh on their minds. That's the context. Jesus is not finished with the fig tree, and there will come a time when it will put forth its tender branches.

Matthew 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 
24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors
24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

Luke 21:31-32
31 So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.


Luke's coverage is not the same as Matthew and Mark's. Luke specifically tells of the siege of Jerusalem in more specific terms so that there is no misunderstanding of that event. He does not mention the abomination of desolation which both Mark and Matthew specify. But he does mention the "times of the Gentiles." Matthew and Mark do not. I would not include Luke's description here as it tends to deviate by focusing in on things not mentioned in the other two, and generalizes where the other two are specific.

Jeff, you want to define "this generation" to mean all of Israel for all time from Israel to the end of all time. But the context does not support your definition.


If it was just "Jeff" and what he wants to define, that would be one thing. But it is not just "Jeff." It is Matthew, Mark, Jesus, Casandie, PeaceLover, and others who have been posting here besides myself who have been trying to get through to you and your fixation on one limited definition of the word, "generation" that forces you into seeing all other prophecy as somehow fulfilled, even to the point of denying that God will indeed destroy sin and death totally. It seems that you actually believe that the last enemy has already been destroyed. One word, a single fixation on one definition, and all history has changed for you. And again, it is in the divided, crumbled Roman empire aka the European states and all their colonies around the world per Daniel 2, that the stone cut out without hands will crush all this world's kingdoms and grow into that everlasting kingdom to come, and Rome was yet not divided during Christ's earthly ministry. His kingdom is still to come. You are wrong on a variety of accounts.



Amen Jeff! (in complete agreement with all you have said here)!

And Kent if you are going to base an entire separate religion on one topic (as your beliefs in preterism is all you discuss here on MC) and base this belief on one word (generation)...


AGAIN I do not base my defining of "this generation" on just that one two word phrase. The whole context of the Olivet Discourse is Jesus talking to four of his disciples, answering their question about when these things will be.

It is always the context of a narrative that determines the meaning of a word of phrase. That is basic English grammar. I am well aware of the other possible definitions of a generation, and the one that fits the narrative in the Olivet Discourse is the generation of the disciples, or those living in the disciples life time.


Then at least seek to understand the word and it's different definitions and meanings. You seem to not understand that generation is used metaphorically not just literally and suggest a lack of intelligence of others and you seem to fail in understanding the 'context, context, context, yourself (while faulting others here):

From Strong's concordance:

Strong's Concordance
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation

Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin from ginomai

Definition: race, family, generation
NASB Translation
generation (32), generations (10), kind (1).

STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8 ); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).


No. 25     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 13, 2017 at 6:18 AM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Context, Context, Context....defines a term that is used within it.

The context of the Olivet Discourse in which we find the phrase used, "Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. "

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.


Yes context. And it cannot be discounted that Jesus cursed the fig tree the day before; and on this very morning (the same day of the Olivet Discourse) the disciples saw that it had withered. (Mark 11:12-14, 20). It is no stretch that Jesus came unto His own, looking for fruit, and found none. His cursing of the fig tree was a physical parable of that reality. It was no small event. And here Jesus explains the parable of the fig tree, which was still fresh on their minds. That's the context. Jesus is not finished with the fig tree, and there will come a time when it will put forth its tender branches.

Matthew 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 
24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors
24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

Luke 21:31-32
31 So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.


Luke's coverage is not the same as Matthew and Mark's. Luke specifically tells of the siege of Jerusalem in more specific terms so that there is no misunderstanding of that event. He does not mention the abomination of desolation which both Mark and Matthew specify. But he does mention the "times of the Gentiles." Matthew and Mark do not. I would not include Luke's description here as it tends to deviate by focusing in on things not mentioned in the other two, and generalizes where the other two are specific.

Jeff, you want to define "this generation" to mean all of Israel for all time from Israel to the end of all time. But the context does not support your definition.


If it was just "Jeff" and what he wants to define, that would be one thing. But it is not just "Jeff." It is Matthew, Mark, Jesus, Casandie, PeaceLover, and others who have been posting here besides myself who have been trying to get through to you and your fixation on one limited definition of the word, "generation" that forces you into seeing all other prophecy as somehow fulfilled, even to the point of denying that God will indeed destroy sin and death totally. It seems that you actually believe that the last enemy has already been destroyed. One word, a single fixation on one definition, and all history has changed for you. And again, it is in the divided, crumbled Roman empire aka the European states and all their colonies around the world per Daniel 2, that the stone cut out without hands will crush all this world's kingdoms and grow into that everlasting kingdom to come, and Rome was yet not divided during Christ's earthly ministry. His kingdom is still to come. You are wrong on a variety of accounts.



Jeff,

The narrative reads that these events would happen to the disciples, they would live through them. This is the truth of the narrative. This is the gospel, scriptural truth I accept.



When God speaks to a people, as in the case with Israel, He often speaks beyond a specific group of people who happen to be alive at one given time.
This too, is in context of Jesus speaking within His own character. Without going into too much detail, the disciples have experienced things that Jesus said throughout history. Your limiting Christ to one generation of disciples does a disservice to all who have gone through trials and persecutions from that time to this. I don't like saying it, but shame on you.

We still take comfort in all these things, because we know His words still apply to this day. He spoke well beyond that little group, and down through the ages even to us today (whoso readeth, let him understand). You are robbing us of our assurance. I am not so sure that you came in by the Door.

John 10:1  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 

John 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers

Be careful, pilgrim. Look at where the sheep are, and look where you are.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.


1st Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


2nd Timothy 2:16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, [or bodyservant56?]
2:18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.
No. 26     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 13, 2017 at 5:22 PM     
Jeff, i never said the resurrection had happened.

The Olivet Discourse doesn't mention the resurrection. There is the judgement of Israel, which was the reason for Christ's return in those events.

Along with other preterists i believe there is a final resurrection and a final judgement .
No. 27     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 9:30 AM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Jeff, i never said the resurrection had happened.

The Olivet Discourse doesn't mention the resurrection. There is the judgement of Israel, which was the reason for Christ's return in those events.

Along with other preterists i believe there is a final resurrection and a final judgement .


The coming of Jesus Christ is accompanied by the resurrection of the elect.

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

1st Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


This has not happened yet. Christ has not yet returned to His earth. The kingdoms of this world are still under the rule of Satan, and we are ambassadors of Christ and His kingdom, which will most certainly come in power and glory over all the earth. The stage is being set, and the world is becoming more and more ungodly. Scriptures will be fulfilled, as literally as the fulfillment of His first advent. And every eye shall see Him.
No. 28     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 2:02 PM     
Repeating myself in hopes that it serves for a purpose:

From Strong's concordance:

Strong's Concordance
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation

Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin from ginomai

Definition: race, family, generation
NASB Translation
generation (32), generations (10), kind (1).

STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).

4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8 ); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).

======================================================================

Concordances and Dictionaries are our friends when trying to understand definitions of words that have varied meanings (not just one meaning as in the case of the word generation).

just repeat'n/say'n

Going to go restore some things around the house and garden now. :duck:


No. 29     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 5:32 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Repeating myself in hopes that it serves for a purpose:

From Strong's concordance:

Strong's Concordance
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation

Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin from ginomai

Definition: race, family, generation
NASB Translation
generation (32), generations (10), kind (1).

STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings from Homer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33; Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;

a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה, Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάν αὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστιν ἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage).


My point exactly made for me, thank you Sandi.
"the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34"
Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.




4. an age (i. e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), the space of from 30 to 33 years (Herodotus 2, 142, et al.; Heraclitus in Plutarch, def. orac. c. 11), or ὁ χρόνος, ἐν ᾧ γεννωντα παρέχει τόν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον ὁ γεννησας (Plutarch, the passage cited); in the N. T. common in plural: Ephesians 3:5 (Winers Grammar, § 31, 9 a.; Buttmann, 186 (161)); παρῳχημέναις γενεαῖς in ages gone by, Acts 14:16; ἀπό τῶν γενεῶν for ages, since the generations began, Colossians 1:26; ἐκ γενεῶν ἀρχαίων from the generations of old, from ancient times down, Acts 15:21; εἰς γενεάς γενεῶν unto generations of generations, through all ages, forever (a phrase which assumes that the longer ages are made up of shorter; see αἰών, 1 a.): Luke 1:50 R L (דּורִים לְדור, Isaiah 51:8 ); εἰς γενεάς καί γενεάς unto generations and generations, ibid. T Tr WH equivalent to וָדור לְדור, Psalm 89:2; Isaiah 34:17; very often in the Sept.; (add, εἰς πάσας τάς γενεάς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, Ephesians 3:21, cf. Ellicott at the passage) (γενεά is used of a century in Genesis 15:16, cf. Knobel at the passage, and on the senses of the word see the full remarks of Keim, iii. 206 (v. 245 English translation)).

======================================================================

Concordances and Dictionaries are our friends when trying to understand definitions of words that have varied meanings (not just one meaning as in the case of the word generation).

just repeat'n/say'n

Going to go restore some things around the house and garden now. :duck:




Agreed, Greek/Hebrew lexicons, and Greek dictionaries are my friends, I looked up the word, Greek, genea, and found what you posted above, which confirmed my understanding that "this generation" in Matt 24:34 means the life time of the four disciples that Jesus was talking to on the mount of Olives that day.

I do hope that we can now let this part of the discussion rest. :spot1:
No. 30     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 7:12 PM     
Kent, You suggest Christians take things 'literally,' when it is you doing so. you are 'missing' the definition (related, relatives, the same stock) and failing to understand that ...

The generation spoken of all carried a 'commonality' that exists still today.

Moreover, you absolutely ignore all the passages around Matthew 24:34. Preterists create an entirely new religion on one passage.

Christ said:

3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall awaya and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


The Gospel has not reached all today, Kent. Albeit Christians are working on this. Learn from the fig tree (visible signs to man)...

32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.


Again this as with the fig tree/that which is visible to man in understanding the parable...the earth (wickedness/satan's system) has not passed away. It is arguable though that the New Heaven is already in existence (satan was banned from the Heavens and is upon the earth and misleading this world we are taught to be no part of). Completion of the New order is another thing though and so there will be a ruling class we know from Scripture.

Long and short of it. It will be the Lord and not man Who will complete the temple (walls do not matter) and the new earth is yet to come...'Praising God' for this.


No. 31     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 9:04 PM     
I am continuing without any antics on the context we find in Matthew 24. We note in Scripture there are 'parallel' verses of Jesus's teachings in Mark and Luke.

It is with prudence that we see to each and I offer you these scriptures for understanding (Luke has the same teaching on generation and in verse 21:35 we find it not just applicable to Israel:

Luke 21:35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Nothing was felt by the whole earth, but it does come soon.

Turning to Mark 13, ...

Mark 13:3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,

(here we are hearing a private discussion). Why is this relevant, because it was not said to the Apostles that it would occur in their own time, but instead the word 'generation' was used, albeit discussion of their own sufferings to occur was given (so you suggesting an 'impersonal' word such as generation means 'time' over 'the generation of vipers' that existed ... I find in error).

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Again, we know this term (generation of vipers) is not for the 'personal' and 'private' discussion or for the Apostles themselves (but the scribes and the pharisees). This so did the Apostles know as should we.

And here we are again with the Gospel reaching the entire earth:
Mark 13: 10 And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. (it has not happened nor near it in 70AD).


and more importantly because it's so concise and direct, Kent ...

Mark 13:19For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

So indeed worse than the flood if paying attention to that fig tree...

This has not occurred.


I hope these verses might help in understanding what has not occurred yet. There are no 'futurists' -- only Christians (such a division shall not exist among Brethren and I do not see taught by the Apostles or Christ).

God Bless.

No. 32     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 15, 2017 at 5:30 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

I am continuing without any antics on the context we find in Matthew 24. We note in Scripture there are 'parallel' verses of Jesus's teachings in Mark and Luke.

It is with prudence that we see to each and I offer you these scriptures for understanding (Luke has the same teaching on generation and in verse 21:35 we find it not just applicable to Israel:

Luke 21:35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Nothing was felt by the whole earth, but it does come soon.

Turning to Mark 13, ...

Mark 13:3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,

(here we are hearing a private discussion). Why is this relevant, because it was not said to the Apostles that it would occur in their own time, but instead the word 'generation' was used,

Just to remind you of your given reference in the thread above. Matthew, Mark and Luke record the same time indicator, "this generation". You can't give a reference as authoritative, then back track out of it, because you disagree with your authority. That is most dishonest.

Your authority that you quoted said,

genea

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30

That means the disciple's life time, unless you want to redefine what "living at the same time" means?


albeit discussion of their own sufferings to occur was given (so you suggesting an 'impersonal' word such as generation means 'time' over 'the generation of vipers' that existed ... I find in error).

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Again, we know this term (generation of vipers) is not for the 'personal' and 'private' discussion or for the Apostles themselves (but the scribes and the pharisees). This so did the Apostles know as should we.


Again you make a strawman argument. I never said that every use of genea, GK., generation, English. means the same thing in every use. Context determines the meaning of a given word in the narrative.

Please you need to stop this foolishness, but then futurist teaching is full of such foolishness.



And here we are again with the Gospel reaching the entire earth:
Mark 13: 10 And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. (it has not happened nor near it in 70AD).


the scripture quote is "to all nations", not to "the entire earth" as you state. You are adding to what is written and misconstruing the context of the narrative so as to fit your futurist view.

The question to consider is what nations? To the Jew anyone not a Jew was of the nations, or a Gentile. Since eschatology is centered on Israel, it would be the nations around Israel, or the Roman Empire.

Eschatology is all about the coming of Messiah to establish his kingdom, remove sin, establish everlasting righteousness and make a new covenant with Israel, actually a remnant of Israel.

The nations did receive the gospel as the apostle Paul states,

Romans 16:25.26
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the proclaiming of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal times, 26 but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;

According to the Apostle Paul, the gospel had been preached to all the nations, so that they were obedient to the faith.

Was Paul lying too?




and more importantly because it's so concise and direct, Kent ...

Mark 13:19For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

So indeed worse than the flood if paying attention to that fig tree...

This has not occurred.


Josephus, in his Wars of the Jews, preface states,

"1. (1) WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; "

"Accordingly, it appears to me that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning of the world, if they be compared to these of the Jews are not so considerable as they were; "

His record of the great tribulations that took place in Israel, Judea and Jerusalem preceding the utter destruction of the city and the temple, with millions killed and millions sent into slavery and exile, disagrees with your comments above.



I hope these verses might help in understanding what has not occurred yet. There are no 'futurists' -- only Christians (such a division shall not exist among Brethren and I do not see taught by the Apostles or Christ).

God Bless.

No. 33     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 15, 2017 at 5:41 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

I am continuing without any antics on the context we find in Matthew 24. We note in Scripture there are 'parallel' verses of Jesus's teachings in Mark and Luke.

It is with prudence that we see to each and I offer you these scriptures for understanding (Luke has the same teaching on generation and in verse 21:35 we find it not just applicable to Israel:

Luke 21:35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.


right after, Luke 21:32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.

Which generation will not pass away? This generation. Who was Jesus talking to? Four of his disciples. Therefor keeping true to the context of the narrative, the generation referenced is their generation, as it was the present or "this" generation living when Jesus said these words.

This really is plain and simple English grammar. I don't understand why you keep beating on this point. So much for no "antics".



Nothing was felt by the whole earth, but it does come soon.

Turning to Mark 13, ...

Mark 13:3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,

(here we are hearing a private discussion). Why is this relevant, because it was not said to the Apostles that it would occur in their own time, but instead the word 'generation' was used, albeit discussion of their own sufferings to occur was given (so you suggesting an 'impersonal' word such as generation means 'time' over 'the generation of vipers' that existed ... I find in error).

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Again, we know this term (generation of vipers) is not for the 'personal' and 'private' discussion or for the Apostles themselves (but the scribes and the pharisees). This so did the Apostles know as should we.

And here we are again with the Gospel reaching the entire earth:
Mark 13: 10 And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. (it has not happened nor near it in 70AD).


and more importantly because it's so concise and direct, Kent ...

Mark 13:19For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

So indeed worse than the flood if paying attention to that fig tree...

This has not occurred.


I hope these verses might help in understanding what has not occurred yet. There are no 'futurists' -- only Christians (such a division shall not exist among Brethren and I do not see taught by the Apostles or Christ).

God Bless.

No. 34     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 15, 2017 at 5:43 PM     
Sandi,

If you were honest to your own referenced authorities, it would be easier to discuss with you. I really had thought better of you, it saddens me to see you take such a low form.
No. 35     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 15, 2017 at 6:45 PM     

Body Servant: Just to remind you of your given reference in the thread above. Matthew, Mark and Luke record the same time indicator, "this generation". You can't give a reference as authoritative, then back track out of it, because you disagree with your authority. That is most dishonest.


What are you talking about BodyServant? I stated this:

We note in Scripture there are 'parallel' verses of Jesus's teachings in Mark and Luke. It is with prudence that we see to each and I offer you these scriptures for understanding (Luke has the same teaching on generation and in verse 21:35 we find it not just applicable to Israel:

Luke 21:35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Nothing was felt by the whole earth, but it does come soon.

Turning to Mark 13, ...

Mark 13:3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,

(here we are hearing a private discussion). Why is this relevant, because it was not said to the Apostles that it would occur in their own time, but instead the word 'generation' was used,


So you state that offering parallel scriptures for this discussion is dishonest? Really? Parallel means:

noun: parallel; plural noun: parallels; noun: parallel of latitude; plural noun: parallels of latitude

1.
a person or thing that is similar or analogous to another.


On further address: The 'fact' that it was a 'private' discussion does matter when seeking to understand the 'context' of which 'generation' was given to the 4 spoken to "in private." The Lord did not say, 'you shall pass' -- but rather an 'impersonal' word was used that was used a great deal by the lord (generation...generation of vipers), which is reference to a group/family/stock of people as is a definition I have offered here. I have offered no dishonesty, but further analysis of parallel scripture for you.

In regards to Paul and Hebrews ... You take what is not literal as literal. I can say the Gospel upon revelation is available to all, but as Scriptures compel us still to go forth teaching the gospel, baptizing and making disciples. We are still reaching civilizations that has not heard of the Gospel of Christ.

CAsandie wrote: Mark 13:19For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

So indeed worse than the flood if paying attention to that fig tree...

This has not occurred.


BodyServan'ts response: Josephus, in his Wars of the Jews, preface states,

"1. (1) WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; "

"Accordingly, it appears to me that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning of the world, if they be compared to these of the Jews are not so considerable as they were; "

His record of the great tribulations that took place in Israel, Judea and Jerusalem preceding the utter destruction of the city and the temple, with millions killed and millions sent into slavery and exile, disagrees with your comments above.


Kent read "Scripture" again and do not provide me with any man's opinions upon the earth in the 1800's even before nuclear weapons were used. We must account Scripture with Scripture. The Bible is God's accounting ... not a man's of the 1800's literature whether a historian or not.

Here is the Scripture presented to you in larger print for easier reference (for myself here): Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

This means if understanding: It shall be greater than the great flood in which no one was spared outside of Noah and Noah's family. Do you see this fact now as it is written in Scripture now (Christ's Words)?

Kent -- The 'GENERATION' of vipers [pharisees] are still alive today Yet comes soon the day when all knees shall bow to Christ.

It's truly that easy to understand minus the antics (excuse my hi lighting...but it begs of logic). I am leaving the discussion here again for now, unless you can provide logic over amusing behavior (what I meant by the word antics that has several meanings just as the word generation does). I'm sure since you have called me foolish before you meant another meaning which is a point of further weakness in your teachings. There is greatness in humility (albeit off topic here).

Good wished for you, Kent.

No. 36     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 15, 2017 at 7:01 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Sandi,

If you were honest to your own referenced authorities, it would be easier to discuss with you. I really had thought better of you, it saddens me to see you take such a low form.


Answered above. Personal insult is not 'teachery' and is a weakness. Not offended as I myself have fell weak at times. It would be easier to hold discussion with you if you were to stick to the facts. Thank you if you see my point here (your subject is "Preterism" not personal attacks against anyone).

Mod to add: It might help you to understand 'you' are the only one seeking debate here/making these thread on Preterism.

Offering Scriptural support for my own views and sources given does not amount to 'dishonesty.'

God Bless.
No. 37     Reply: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 16, 2017 at 5:21 AM     
CAsandie wrote:


Body Servant: Just to remind you of your given reference in the thread above. Matthew, Mark and Luke record the same time indicator, "this generation". You can't give a reference as authoritative, then back track out of it, because you disagree with your authority. That is most dishonest.


What are you talking about BodyServant? I stated this:

We note in Scripture there are 'parallel' verses of Jesus's teachings in Mark and Luke. It is with prudence that we see to each and I offer you these scriptures for understanding (Luke has the same teaching on generation and in verse 21:35 we find it not just applicable to Israel:

Luke 21:35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Nothing was felt by the whole earth, but it does come soon.

Turning to Mark 13, ...

Mark 13:3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,

(here we are hearing a private discussion). Why is this relevant, because it was not said to the Apostles that it would occur in their own time, but instead the word 'generation' was used,


So you state that offering parallel scriptures for this discussion is dishonest? Really? Parallel means:

noun: parallel; plural noun: parallels; noun: parallel of latitude; plural noun: parallels of latitude

1.
a person or thing that is similar or analogous to another.


On further address: The 'fact' that it was a 'private' discussion does matter when seeking to understand the 'context' of which 'generation' was given to the 4 spoken to "in private." The Lord did not say, 'you shall pass' -- but rather an 'impersonal' word was used that was used a great deal by the lord (generation...generation of vipers), which is reference to a group/family/stock of people as is a definition I have offered here. I have offered no dishonesty, but further analysis of parallel scripture for you.

In regards to Paul and Hebrews ... You take what is not literal as literal. I can say the Gospel upon revelation is available to all, but as Scriptures compel us still to go forth teaching the gospel, baptizing and making disciples. We are still reaching civilizations that has not heard of the Gospel of Christ.

CAsandie wrote: Mark 13:19For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

So indeed worse than the flood if paying attention to that fig tree...

This has not occurred.


BodyServan'ts response: Josephus, in his Wars of the Jews, preface states,

"1. (1) WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; "

"Accordingly, it appears to me that the misfortunes of all men, from the beginning of the world, if they be compared to these of the Jews are not so considerable as they were; "

His record of the great tribulations that took place in Israel, Judea and Jerusalem preceding the utter destruction of the city and the temple, with millions killed and millions sent into slavery and exile, disagrees with your comments above.


Kent read "Scripture" again and do not provide me with any man's opinions upon the earth in the 1800's even before nuclear weapons were used. We must account Scripture with Scripture. The Bible is God's accounting ... not a man's of the 1800's literature whether a historian or not.


What are you saying here? You think that Josephus wrote in the 1800s?

I reference Josephus because he was alive and there, during the war against the Jews, and was an eye witness to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. He knew first hand about the thousands and thousands of Jews that were crucified along the roads leading out of Jerusalem. He knew first hand about the millions killed, and the millions sent into slavery.

You lack of knowledge is showing, Sandi. Sad for one who claims such a depth of education. All the while claiming I am not a Christian or am creating a new Christian religion or other such foolishness.


Here is the Scripture presented to you in larger print for easier reference (for myself here): Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

This means if understanding: It shall be greater than the great flood in which no one was spared outside of Noah and Noah's family. Do you see this fact now as it is written in Scripture now (Christ's Words)?

Kent -- The 'GENERATION' of vipers [pharisees] are still alive today Yet comes soon the day when all knees shall bow to Christ.

It's truly that easy to understand minus the antics (excuse my hi lighting...but it begs of logic). I am leaving the discussion here again for now, unless you can provide logic over amusing behavior (what I meant by the word antics that has several meanings just as the word generation does). I'm sure since you have called me foolish before you meant another meaning which is a point of further weakness in your teachings. There is greatness in humility (albeit off topic here).

Good wished for you, Kent.

No. 38     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 16, 2017 at 2:56 PM     
Kent -- Yes, I was incorrect about Josephus and I have not researched all the ancient historians (nor do I care to) and have only a single book in my collection of Josephus published in 1800's (it was my Dad's).

The problem with publishing is they have gone through many hands not treated the same as the Bible has been. I believe this is what I read when responding. There is suspicion of fraud/forgery on Josephus's work in the 1840's:

The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:

"Mattathias, the father of Josephus, must have been a witness to the miracles which are said to have been performed by Jesus, and Josephus was born within two years after the crucifixion, yet in all the works he says nothing whatever about the life or death of Jesus Christ; as for the interpolated passage it is now universally acknowledged to be a forgery. The arguments of the 'Christian Ajax,' even Lardner himself, against it are these: 'It was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius. It disturbs the narrative. The language is quite Christian. It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text. It is not quoted by Photius [9th century], though he has three articles concerning Josephus; and this author expressly states that this historian has not taken the least notice of Christ. Neither Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew; nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors; nor Origen against Celsus, have ever mentioned this testimony. But, on the contrary, in chap. 25th of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ. That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)

Hence, by the 1840's, when the anonymous author of Christian Mythology Unveiled wrote, the Testimonium Flavanium was already "universally acknowledged to be a forgery."


http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

Regardless of speculation and contamination of early writings, a fair study should be done of the works, so a minor study this morning bears the question is Josephus's testimony/writings reliable?

Where’s That in the Bible?

Josephus shares details about biblical people and places that don’t appear in the Bible. Which of these claims have you heard, without realizing they came from Josephus?

Herod the Great became King of Judea by the decree of Caesar Augustus (Jewish War 1.20.2).
The girl who danced before Herod and requested John the Baptist’s head was named Salome (Antiquities 18.5.4).
Herod sent John the Baptist to prison in Macherus, on the east side of the Dead Sea (Antiquities 18.5.2).
Felix, the Roman governor who met Paul in prison and trembled at his words, had begged his Jewish wife, Drusilla, to divorce her husband so they could marry (Antiquities 20.7.2).


In summary, Josephus is an eminently important and helpful source for gathering details about New Testament times, but Christians should be careful not to read him as an apologist for Christianity or to rely upon him too heavily. Nor should they be ignorant of his bias in favor of Judaism and his willingness to deliberately rewrite Old Testament narratives to provide a more flattering picture of the Jewish heritage.


https://answersingenesis.org/bible-history/is-josephus-reliable/

Kent, why do you waste time attacking? I hold a Master's in Government Studies not Divinity (or religious studies). I've taken 'some' seminary, Bible and religious study courses (it's not part of any degree hanging on my Mother's wall today). I have an undergraduate degree in legal studies. I only mention my education -- because you keep doing so as if it were relative here.

I keep offering 'Scripture' as Precedence over all 'books.' Your focus is NOT on the Scripture provided that you again have failed to answer:

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

This means if understanding: It shall be greater than the great flood in which no one was spared outside of Noah and Noah's family. Do you see this fact now as it is written in Scripture now (Christ's Words)?

The 'GENERATION' of vipers [pharisees] are still alive today Yet comes soon the day when all knees shall bow to Christ.


As far as calling me foolish repetitively -- it does not strengthen your teaching on Preterism (but rather in my own opinion weaken it. Personal attacks is not a form of teaching that leads to a 'sound' and 'sober' presentation of anything beyond 'acknowledgement' that the person is 'angry' at the other's conclusions).

Yes, it is true that I believe that your beliefs counter Christianity, Kent. It's a fact -- not a 'dig' at you.

God bless.
No. 39     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 17, 2017 at 3:58 AM     
For the record, the term futurist has been in use for at least 135 years.

Thought for the Day: It was 135 years ago when F.W. Farrar penned these words in "The Early Days of Christianity": There have been three great schools of Apocalyptic interpretation:
1.The Preterists, who regard the book as having been mainly fulfilled.
2. The Futurists who refer it to events which are still wholly future. 3. The Continuous-Historical Interpreters- who see it in an outline of Christian History from the days of St. John down to the end of all things.

The second of these schools, the Futurists, has always been numerically small and at present may be said to be non-existent." (pg 495)

Hmmm, how times change. But there's your proof that the Preterist view has been the leading interpretive principle until the early 1900's with the infiltration of John Darby and the likes of Scofield, Walvoord and others. (TJ Smith)

Post from Evangelical Preterism. https://www.facebook.com/EvangelicalPreterism/?hc_ref=ARTp2U3sPPFGcmvQlIJy4BBGpqS3VcwfTlGdOeFQuR_4FU0uGB7tOtpPUy54wdZCAz8&fref=nf
No. 40     Reply: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 17, 2017 at 1:38 PM     
BodyServant wrote: For the record, the term futurist has been in use for at least 135 years.


But we see the common English definitions as given below and yet the term Christian from Scripture much earlier than the invention of preterism. I do not travel far from Scripture or follow man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurist

MW - Definition of futurist

1: one who studies and predicts the future especially on the basis of current trends

2: one who advocates or practices futurism



Many words such as cuss words have been used for 2000 years, but they make little sense to me personally (divisions made little sense to Paul who was taught directly by Christ ... should it be so different for Christians today)?

I do not travel far from the Bible as far as teachers of the world. Although I appreciate my Pastor in my Church, I do not follow him. He himself tells people to follow Christ alone [I do not attend Shadow Mountain anymore, btw (as you remembered) ... I attend a small modest Baptist Church].

My words are not aimed to hurt nor quarrel with you, Kent. Prayer and peace extended. I apologize if too sharp in my words. I seek to hurt no one and I detest bullies (forgive me if I have been too harsh).

No. 41     Reply: Re: Re: Re: RESTORATION   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Aug 19, 2017 at 6:00 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

bodyservant56 wrote:

Context, Context, Context....defines a term that is used within it.

The context of the Olivet Discourse in which we find the phrase used, "Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred. "

Mar 13:30 Truly I say to you, Not at all will this generation pass away until all these things occur.


Yes context. And it cannot be discounted that Jesus cursed the fig tree the day before; and on this very morning (the same day of the Olivet Discourse) the disciples saw that it had withered. (Mark 11:12-14, 20). It is no stretch that Jesus came unto His own, looking for fruit, and found none. His cursing of the fig tree was a physical parable of that reality. It was no small event. And here Jesus explains the parable of the fig tree, which was still fresh on their minds. That's the context. Jesus is not finished with the fig tree, and there will come a time when it will put forth its tender branches.


Just a thought here. If the fruitless fig tree that is cursed and withers and dies is representative of Israel. Does not the fact that it, that day died, represent the soon destruction of Israel and not a destruction far in the future?

Jesus came unto his own and his own received him not. Jesus the Messiah came to Israel, and Israel rejected their Messiah. Jesus through out his ministry called Israel to repentance, and instead they killed him. The gardener, Jesus, watered and manured the fruitless fig tree, but after 3 1/2 years it still had not started to bear fruit. So here at the end, during Jesus last week in Jerusalem before his death, he curses this fruitless fig tree, representing fruitless Israel. The actual tree withers and dies. Is this not a clear sign of Israel's soon judgment destruction?


The quote in the Olivet Discourse is using the fig tree in a whole different way. As Luke says it as trees and not just the fig tree. It is used as a time indicator of the seasons, "when summer is nigh", and not as a sign of fruitfulness or judgment, which is represented by Jesus cursing the fruitless fig tree.



Matthew 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 
24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors
24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

Luke 21:31-32
31 So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur.


Luke's coverage is not the same as Matthew and Mark's. Luke specifically tells of the siege of Jerusalem in more specific terms so that there is no misunderstanding of that event. He does not mention the abomination of desolation which both Mark and Matthew specify. But he does mention the "times of the Gentiles." Matthew and Mark do not. I would not include Luke's description here as it tends to deviate by focusing in on things not mentioned in the other two, and generalizes where the other two are specific.

Jeff, you want to define "this generation" to mean all of Israel for all time from Israel to the end of all time. But the context does not support your definition.


If it was just "Jeff" and what he wants to define, that would be one thing. But it is not just "Jeff." It is Matthew, Mark, Jesus, Casandie, PeaceLover, and others who have been posting here besides myself who have been trying to get through to you and your fixation on one limited definition of the word, "generation" that forces you into seeing all other prophecy as somehow fulfilled, even to the point of denying that God will indeed destroy sin and death totally. It seems that you actually believe that the last enemy has already been destroyed. One word, a single fixation on one definition, and all history has changed for you. And again, it is in the divided, crumbled Roman empire aka the European states and all their colonies around the world per Daniel 2, that the stone cut out without hands will crush all this world's kingdoms and grow into that everlasting kingdom to come, and Rome was yet not divided during Christ's earthly ministry. His kingdom is still to come. You are wrong on a variety of accounts.