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MeetChristians.com / Forums / Biblical & Theological Issues

No. 0     Original Topic: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 30, 2017 at 2:24 PM   Viewed 2968 times     
Many of us have seen the debates here in Theo over predestination and OSAS, but I do not believe I've ever sat through a teaching as I have last Sunday that was so very encouraging. I'd like to share some of this here.

First a question:

What does the following verse mean to you?

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

In John 6 we read a great deal happening at the time (miracles next to those leaving Christ) and we hear Christ say:

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Can you imagine seeing disease cured as no other doctor could and walking away without knowing? Think of the 'honor' to 'see' with eyes open as we walk this earth and see so many without knowledge or accurate knowledge of the Lord. Do you account your studying for the light seen? I can't, even though many Christians are well studied. What prompted you to study/buy a Bible? What of scientists and atheists. They too are well studied (perhaps not Scripture though). If you have ever seen the DVD Joe Average, then you saw an atheist unable to explain where the gases and space debris were formed/created for the "big bang theory." (it's truly that simple if approaching an unbeliever ... ask this question)!

In Sermon last Sunday, the sufferings of the Lord were discussed (i.e. the Lord of all creation was rumored to a mere mortal [John the Baptist, Elijah] and called a Blasphemer, betrayed and walked away from and finally murdered. The Lord of all whom Peter recognized as the Messiah and whom you too recognize as the Messiah if a believer).

Yet, still today many call Christ a mere prophet (a mere mortal man)! Have you wondered why many can not see the truth as you do? What a joy to be predestined by the Lord (that is how special you are ... every believer who is reading this).

There is no question you are predestined to know the truth. The question remains as asked above are you called? are you chosen? What are the differences? (I'm allowing others here to answer this; the answers to this question might bridge the differences seen in OSAS in understanding what Predestination is and that it exists).

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

No. 1     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 20, 2017 at 3:39 PM     
Just checking back to see if there are any takers on this question from the OP :

What does the following verse mean to you?

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."


No. 2     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jun 20, 2017 at 5:41 PM     
The arguments between Arianism and Calvinism, or OSAS and Predestination to damnation and salvation, is one that will never be bridged, IMHO. Why? Because both views are based on cherry picked verses that are then used as the foundation of the belief.

Context, context, context is all important. The literary, historical, cultural contexts can not be ignored if one wants to find and understand the truth. They did teach you that in the bible studies you have pursued, yes?

Context of Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few chosen. is a parable of the soon coming kingdom, specifically the judgment to come on those who reject the Messiah, refusing to enter into the wedding feast.

This was a direct challenge, once again, to the Pharisees, calling them to repentance.

The full context is:

Mat 22:1-15


1And answering, Jesus again spoke to them in parables, saying:

2 The kingdom of Heaven is compared to a man, a king, who made a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent his slaves to call those being invited to the wedding feast, but they did not desire to come.

4 Again, he sent other slaves, saying, Tell the ones invited, Behold, I have prepared my supper; my oxen, and the fatlings are killed, and all things ready; come to the wedding feast. 5 But not caring they went away, one to his own field, and one to his trading. 6 And the rest, seizing his slaves, insulted and killed them.

7 And hearing, the king became angry. And sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 Then he said to his slaves, Indeed, the wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Then go onto the exits of the highways and call to the wedding feast as many as you may find.

10 And going out into the highways, those slaves gathered all, as many as they found, both evil and good. And the wedding feast was filled with reclining guests. 11 And the king coming in to look over those reclining, he saw a man there not having been dressed in a wedding garment.

12 And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here, not having a wedding garment? But he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, Binding his feet and hands, take him away and throw him out into the outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. 14 For many are called, but few chosen.

15 Then going, the Pharisees took counsel so as they might trap Him in words.

This parable of the kingdom, is about how the Jewish rulers rejected the Messiah of God. First they rejected the call of the prophets, the slaves of the king, regarding coming to the Son's wedding feast. Then some of them killed the prophets. This brings the judgment wrath of the king, God, upon those invited, Israel.

After the destruction of the wicked, Israel, the servants, angels gather the guests, believers, into the wedding feast of the Messiah, son, Jesus.

The wedding feast is an image of the fellowship of those in the kingdom with God and the Messiah.

Then we have one who was not an invited guest, who was not wearing the white robe of a wedding feast guest, an interloper. This one was cast out into the judgment wrath that over took all of Israel.

Who are the called, who are the chosen? Was not Israel called out of Egypt? Yes they were,
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and I called my son out of Egypt.

Israel was called out of Egypt, and out of him were chosen those who would be in the Son, The Israel of God.

No where in this parable of the kingdom do I find predestination. Its just not there in the context. Cherry picking one verse out of context and adding to it others, can devise any doctrinal statement you want to construct.

What I find is the common theme through out Jesus and NT teaching, that those who are part of the Messiah, are saved, those who are not part of the Messiah are judged.

No. 3     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 21, 2017 at 12:30 AM     
Kent thank you, but may I ask why you stopped at verse 15? As well, were you answering the question I asked in regards to the difference between being 'called' or 'chosen' when you wrote this:

BodyServant wrote: Israel was called out of Egypt, and out of him were chosen those who would be in the Son, The Israel of God.


BodyServant wrote: No where in this parable of the kingdom do I find predestination.


Do you see a contradiction in the two sentences you write above about those chosen? Kent, do you believe that I stated that the initial scripture I provided proved predestination? (That was just a question about the difference between being called and chosen ... the rest of what I wrote had to do with predestination in a sense (revisited for encouragement).

But since you misunderstood, let's go there anyway and go to the end of the verse in Matt 22:41:

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.


We see the plan in motion of the Messiah's foretold genealogy from before Christ's birth and man's failure in understanding this despite Prophecy known. Did those chosen even know? Did David? Did those called -- meet the call?

So too did the Lord count the number of hairs on your head before you could even speak a word, my friend. I have never in all my history anywhere been accused of cherry picking. I have not even used the predestination scriptures that we all know. It's not my purpose here to convince anyone of a doctrine, but of the Lord's Plans for us individually. I am attempting to offer deeper thought and encouragement in the exploration into one's own decisions in consideration of 'what' (or more appropriately 'Who') caused anyone to read the Bible and to 'believe?'

It should be considered, but not in which to produce anxiety over doctrines, but rather to come to the understanding as held by the Apostles and Disciples alike.

1 Peter 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. (not cherry picking ... I understand there is much more to this verse, but I am bringing out the Lord's mindset for His).

Thanks for your post. May the Lord Bless.

No. 4     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jun 22, 2017 at 1:20 PM     
Matthew 22:1-15 comprises a paragraph in the literary narrative. Which is why I posted and commented on the whole of that narrative passage. Otherwise I would have to post the whole of the book of Matthew in my reference, as a complete reference.

This is a part of the issue at hand in these discussions. Proof texting by cherry picking a verse out of context here and another there, stringing them together on a tenuous thread of thought, hoping that no one looks at the full context to read the true meaning. I have read many authors that do this. I have sat through many sermons where this was done. And in reading the context of the proof texts used I have too often found the truth of scripture to be different that that propounded by the author or speaker.

The Bible was not originally written with chapter and verse numbers. Which is why we read in the historic records in the NT that "it is written..." (Luke 24:46; John 6:31; 1Cor. 9:10), the NT writers did not have chapter and verse numbers to refer to, because these were added by scholars for their studies centuries after the originals were written and distributed.

We today do great violence to the narrative of scripture by only referring to a single verse of scripture, and tend to great and small errors of doctrine.

By using the popular method of proof texting I can prove that Jesus command immediate suicide. Yes it is totally fallacious and false, but it can be done.


Matt 27:5 So Judas ...went away and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37 ..."Go and do likewise."

John 13:27 ... Then said Jesus ..., That thou doest, do quickly.

Thou foolish, yes, it is, this is how too many proof text, treating the scriptural narrative as a string of independent phrases and sentences, twisting and bending them to fit their ideas.

And this is part of the reason that we have too many divisions in the body of Christ, so that some judge others of the brethren of Christ as unbelievers and unsaved.

The truth Sandi I don't find much in your OP that is logical or relevant to a discussion of preterism. You use a couple of proof texts then ask me what do I make of them. I have no problem with you addressing questions directly to me, in fact I would appreciate that more than an indirect method.

But you really have not given me much to address here.

My acceptance of preterism as the truth of scripture is largely based on accepting the narrative in context as holding the truth and rejecting all attempts to proof text, either for or against.

Using the Historical-Grammatical-Lexical Method of hermeneutic has lead me to a clearly understanding of scripture then I held 40, 30, 20 even 10 years ago. First reading any verses under study in its literary context, second reading parallel contexts, (such as recorded in the gospels), third considering the overall context of the whole of the bible.

Next is the historic context. None of the Bible was written to you and me. Not one word of it. The Bible we have has been handed down to us, through the agency of those who have preserved it and translated it, through lifetimes of work, for us today to be able to read and learn from.

To understand any verse of scripture, we need to understand the historic context of both the writer and the intended reader. Why was it written, to whom was it written, what did it mean to the original readers. This helps to bring us to a truer understanding of the scriptures. And this is part of why I am today a preterist, the historic context shows that eschatology is about first century events, and can not be about events that are yet to happen over 2000 years from the time of the writings.

For an example, when I read the Olivet discourse, I read that four disciples came to Jesus in the garden where they spent the night, and asked him when the temple would be destroyed, when he would return to establish his kingdom (a constant discussion point throughout the gospels) and the end of that age. I read Jesus telling them (you) about what they would experience in their lifetime, to be prepared to leave Jerusalem and Judea, and not lose hope, that he would save them from the judgment coming upon Israel. This is the historic context I read in this passage.


The Allegorical hermeneutic first used and popularized by Philo in the first century, as a way to align the scriptures with Plato and other Greek teachers, seems to me to be what is used too much by today's teachers. Allegory can be a useful application method, biblical teachers did use it, but to understand the truths of scripture I find that the HGL hermeneutic is the better method to use. This allows these teachers to apply their own theological and doctrinal definitions to the scriptures.

For example, futurists must redefine the "you" in the Olivet discourse to mean another group of people, another generation than the one living during the historic giving of this address. So "you" becomes "Them". They define "this generation" to mean, the generation that is living when these events take place. These teachers use exegeses to redefine simple terms to fit their theology and doctrines. They read into the scriptures, their own ideas, redefining what is clearly and simply stated, creating doctrines that are not found in scripture.

For a great read on the HGL hermenuetic and others in comparison I recommend:

https://bible.org/seriespage/6-contextual-method-biblical-interpretation
No. 5     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 23, 2017 at 9:10 PM     
Up to 22:7 there is an interesting parallel to Israel, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Verses 9 and 10 seems to parallel where we are today, which began with the apostles and early disciples preaching the Way. The Book of Acts is still being written. The wedding has not yet begun, and invitations are still being accepted.

Verse 11 is obviously the coming of the King, Jesus Christ.

At this point, we need to be careful - because there is a difference between being invited to a wedding (guest), and being a major player IN the wedding (BRIDE).

I do not agree with replacement theology, and God still has unfulfilled plans for Israel. With that in mind, I try to understand Jesus in a more specified context when it comes to the Jews He addressed. Scripture makes the distinction between Jew and Gentile (non-Jew). Of course, at present, in this age of Grace, all are one in Christ Jesus. But the Grace period will come to a close.

Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.

Deuteronomy 30:1 "And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you,
30:2 and return to the LORD your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul,
30:3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
30:4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there he will take you.
30:5 And the LORD your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.


God did not say "IF" all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse," HE said "WHEN."

Israel has suffered the curse for nearly 2000 years, not counting time in Babylon, and living in their own land under Greek and Roman rule. God also told them that they would "call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you." Babylon is only one nation. Israel under Roman and Greek rule still had a nation with Jerusalem for its capitol. The Romans scattered the Jews, and they are found all over the world today. God did not promise to replace them with someone else and turn Israel and Jerusalem into some spiritual kingdom of converted Gentiles. He promised that He would gather THEM from one end of heaven to the other and bring them back into the land and that THEY would possess that land and be more prosperous and numerous than their fathers. Israel's existence today (not the strip of land on the Mediterranean coast, but the descendants of Jacob, who is also named Israel), and Israel's continued abiding in unbelief, and Jews still scattered all over the world are all a testimony to the truth of the Word, that God still has plans for His covenant people, called Israel.

So Jesus, the King, returns - and at His wedding feast finds one of the guests who is without a wedding garment. If the parable is about the Church, then the wedding garment would be the bride's dress, which would be white.

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."


The bride's garment consists of "fine white linen which is the righteous deeds of the saints." To not have a wedding garment in this context means a lacking in righteous deeds. What the saints do that are considered worthy of fine linen is beyond me, but exemplary behavior betrays one's spiritual condition. The person having not the garment lacks in righteous deeds, betraying his/her own spiritual condition in the negative sense.

Also, the fact that this person in Matthew 22:11 is not "blessed" indicates that he/she was not invited. In the sense of evangelism, and getting out the Word, many respond by making some sort of confession and joining a local church. But as Scripture states, there are many false teachers among the flock of God. 1st John tells us that they are "not of us." Also, many do not hear the gospel message, and set about establishing their own righteousness as they commune within the churches of God. They lack the righteousness of God, which comes only by faith in Christ. Without His righteousness within, they have no truly righteous deeds. They have no salvation within to work out.

Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


When Jesus comes back, He will be looking for fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,and self control. There are deeds (works, outworking) that accompany these characteristics making it self-evident in the one who posses these qualities.

1st Peter 3:3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—
3:4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.


In the context of evangelism, the call is still going out, and not everyone in the churches are true sheep of the flock of God - it is a mix, and there are those who have not the wedding garment, and are not of the Bride of Christ.

But since the parable specifies "guests," and guests are not the Bride, then it seems to me more study is in order to properly understand the parable, and therefore the quote at the end of it, that many are called but few are chosen.



No. 6     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jun 24, 2017 at 9:31 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.

No. 7     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 25, 2017 at 6:02 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



It IS a big deal because Scripture makes it so. And when Jesus returns, and physical Israel is restored to her physical land (not man's doing as we see today, but God's doing as we shall see because He will do it), you will then understand what you are not seeing at the present.

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


This has never happened, not to this day. But as surely as Mica 5:2 and Isaiah 53, the time is coming and it will happen. Israel is still scattered today, and the nation that occupies that strip of land the size of New Jersey on the Mediterranean coast is not the fulfillment of this prophecy.
No. 8     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jun 25, 2017 at 9:06 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



It IS a big deal because Scripture makes it so. And when Jesus returns, and physical Israel is restored to her physical land (not man's doing as we see today, but God's doing as we shall see because He will do it), you will then understand what you are not seeing at the present.

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


This has never happened, not to this day. But as surely as Mica 5:2 and Isaiah 53, the time is coming and it will happen. Israel is still scattered today, and the nation that occupies that strip of land the size of New Jersey on the Mediterranean coast is not the fulfillment of this prophecy.


The Old Israel of 12 tribes no longer exist. Now there is only one mixed up group. With Jesus we speak of spiritual aspects, and no one is bothered about physical aspects. The spiritual temple is Jesus.

Ezekiel wrote during exile period. People returned subsequently. So it cannot be quoted now.

No. 9     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jun 25, 2017 at 11:54 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



It IS a big deal because Scripture makes it so. And when Jesus returns, and physical Israel is restored to her physical land (not man's doing as we see today, but God's doing as we shall see because He will do it), you will then understand what you are not seeing at the present.

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


This has never happened, not to this day. But as surely as Mica 5:2 and Isaiah 53, the time is coming and it will happen. Israel is still scattered today, and the nation that occupies that strip of land the size of New Jersey on the Mediterranean coast is not the fulfillment of this prophecy.


The Old Israel of 12 tribes no longer exist. Now there is only one mixed up group. With Jesus we speak of spiritual aspects, and no one is bothered about physical aspects. The spiritual temple is Jesus.

Ezekiel wrote during exile period. People returned subsequently. So it cannot be quoted now.



Yes indeed. One problem with futurists is the lack of properly applying prophetic statements. To many of them all prophecy is about a yet future event. So they take ones that have already been fulfilled, such as those about the return of the Jews from the Babylonian captivity to Israel, and say these are yet in our future.

It is another way in which the scriptural truth is twisted and mucked up. Its all part of the cherry picking and proof texting hermeneutic that futurists adhere to in support of their failed view, in doing this they ignore the actual historical contexts and the actual past fulfillment of them.

Sorry, Jeff, but Deva is right on this.

I have considered the idea that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be back in the land, albeit a small part of the whole, based on God's promise to Abraham that they would live in that land for ever. But Ezekiel was referring to the soon return of the captives of Babylon to Israel, not some yet future great gathering of all Jews back into the land of promise.
No. 10     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 25, 2017 at 7:18 PM     

bodyservant wrote: My acceptance of preterism...[you continue on with discussion of your perceived study skills beyond that of others]


Kent, this thread is not about preterism (haven't you enough threads created by yourself on your beliefs)? As prideful as you are about your study skills, others might believe that you are 'cherry picking' in which to support your own beliefs that they reject due to scholarly study of the Bible (but apparently you can not see that).

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Jeff -- Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I stand in agreement with you and encourage all to read your posts here. :2thumbs:

mod typo

No. 11     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jun 25, 2017 at 7:55 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



It IS a big deal because Scripture makes it so. And when Jesus returns, and physical Israel is restored to her physical land (not man's doing as we see today, but God's doing as we shall see because He will do it), you will then understand what you are not seeing at the present.

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


This has never happened, not to this day. But as surely as Mica 5:2 and Isaiah 53, the time is coming and it will happen. Israel is still scattered today, and the nation that occupies that strip of land the size of New Jersey on the Mediterranean coast is not the fulfillment of this prophecy.


The Old Israel of 12 tribes no longer exist. Now there is only one mixed up group. With Jesus we speak of spiritual aspects, and no one is bothered about physical aspects. The spiritual temple is Jesus.

Ezekiel wrote during exile period. People returned subsequently. So it cannot be quoted now.



Yes indeed. One problem with futurists is the lack of properly applying prophetic statements. To many of them all prophecy is about a yet future event. So they take ones that have already been fulfilled, such as those about the return of the Jews from the Babylonian captivity to Israel, and say these are yet in our future.

It is another way in which the scriptural truth is twisted and mucked up. Its all part of the cherry picking and proof texting hermeneutic that futurists adhere to in support of their failed view, in doing this they ignore the actual historical contexts and the actual past fulfillment of them.

Sorry, Jeff, but Deva is right on this.

I have considered the idea that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may be back in the land, albeit a small part of the whole, based on God's promise to Abraham that they would live in that land for ever. But Ezekiel was referring to the soon return of the captives of Babylon to Israel, not some yet future great gathering of all Jews back into the land of promise.


All religions after Judaism, such as, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Sikhism dumped blood lineage claim. Only Hinduism which is much older and Judaism are harping on blood relations. That is spiritual bankruptcy! God no longer bothers about physical blood relationships. Now it is Jesus who is the only way, life and truth, and we worship God in spirit and truth.
No. 12     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jun 26, 2017 at 1:30 AM     
CAsandie wrote:


bodyservant wrote: My acceptance of preterism...[you continue on with discussion of your perceived study skills beyond that of others]


Kent, this thread is not about preterism (haven't you enough threads created by yourself on your beliefs)? As prideful as you are about your study skills, others might believe that you are 'cherry picking' in which to support your own beliefs that they reject due to scholarly study of the Bible (but apparently you can not see that).

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Jeff -- Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I stand in agreement with you and encourage all to read your posts here. :2thumbs:

mod typo



Sandi, I do apologize. I had a slip of thought between threads and took this discussion away from predestination to preterism. Though there is some congruence in these topics they are not exactly the same thing.

No, I do not see the Calvinist doctrine of predestination in the called chosen references.

I see that the kingdom of Messiah, the way of the life of righteousness is what was predestined from the foundation of the world. But those who enter into this kingdom life do so by choice. I do not hold that any one of us were predestined to be saved and others are predestined to damnation.

I see a tension between the Holy Spirit calling all men to repentance, and who so ever will comes into the kingdom relationship with the Messiah. All men are saved by the finished work of Christ, but not all have repented and entered into Christ.

As I stated earlier, the called chosen reference in the context of the narrative, was specifically about the end times of Israel in the first century, so though it is about preterism after all.
No. 13     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 26, 2017 at 8:49 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



It IS a big deal because Scripture makes it so. And when Jesus returns, and physical Israel is restored to her physical land (not man's doing as we see today, but God's doing as we shall see because He will do it), you will then understand what you are not seeing at the present.

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


This has never happened, not to this day. But as surely as Mica 5:2 and Isaiah 53, the time is coming and it will happen. Israel is still scattered today, and the nation that occupies that strip of land the size of New Jersey on the Mediterranean coast is not the fulfillment of this prophecy.


The Old Israel of 12 tribes no longer exist. Now there is only one mixed up group. With Jesus we speak of spiritual aspects, and no one is bothered about physical aspects. The spiritual temple is Jesus.

Ezekiel wrote during exile period. People returned subsequently. So it cannot be quoted now.



God, through Ezekiel, spoke far beyond the exile period. In answering you, I would agree that, other than Judah and the the remnant of tribes that went into Babylonian captivity, the rest of Israel has been lost, hence the oft-quoted "lost tribes of Israel" phrase. But they are not lost to God. And God has stated in no uncertain terms, in various places throughout Scripture, that He will return ALL Israel to their land. Now you and Kent can cherry pick your verses and leave those I have quoted, as well as those I will enlighten you both about shortly, or you can "spiritualize" them and finagle "Israel" to mean "Church" with some version of replacement theology. But that does not change the unchanging God, who has said, as quoted above, that He will bring it to pass.

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.


This has not yet happened. Jesus has not yet reigned and prospered - but was rejected and crucified, and is now at the right hand of God the Father in heaven. And we who are His are His ambassadors in a world that is currently under the rule of a different prince. Christ has not yet come to execute judgment and justice in the earth, as Jeremiah tells us He will do when He comes. And when that happens, as it surely will, well, just read the rest of the passage. Then you may take up your argument with God.
No. 14     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 26, 2017 at 9:20 PM     
BodyServant wrote: Sandi, I do apologize. I had a slip of thought between threads and took this discussion away from predestination to preterism. Though there is some congruence in these topics they are not exactly the same thing.


Thank you for recognizing this (I had seen the unmodified, btw). Two separate discussions (now three as well as persecuting Jews, although it is clearly stated in scripture there shall is no Jew or Greek, but One Body in Christ).

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff wrote: And when that happens, as it surely will, well, just read the rest of the passage. Then you may take up your argument with God.


Amen.


No. 15     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 2:14 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Jeff wrote: This has never happened, not to this day. But as surely as Mica 5:2 and Isaiah 53, the time is coming and it will happen. Israel is still scattered today, and the nation that occupies that strip of land the size of New Jersey on the Mediterranean coast is not the fulfillment of this prophecy.


So you agree that the forced occupation of Palestine-land and unilateral declaration of independence in 1948 is not a fulfillment of the prophecy.

Jeff wrote: God, through Ezekiel, spoke far beyond the exile period. In answering you, I would agree that, other than Judah and the the remnant of tribes that went into Babylonian captivity, the rest of Israel has been lost, hence the oft-quoted "lost tribes of Israel" phrase. But they are not lost to God.


No soul is lost to God. Ultimately, He will choose a place for each soul, either in hell or in heaven. What God obliterated with regard to original twelve tribes, you want to deny and build castles out of thin air?

Jeff wrote: And God has stated in no uncertain terms, in various places throughout Scripture, that He will return ALL Israel to their land. Now you and Kent can cherry pick your verses and leave those I have quoted, as well as those I will enlighten you both about shortly, or you can "spiritualize" them and finagle "Israel" to mean "Church" with some version of replacement theology. But that does not change the unchanging God, who has said, as quoted above, that He will bring it to pass.


We have only one tree (not two as some Messianic Jews claim) with Abraham as the root, Isaac the trunk and Joseph the braches. These branches that were not bearing fruit were cut off. The first three thousand Jews who accepted Jesus were grafted back. Through Christ, Gentiles also became braches of the same tree. All being part of Israel now. So there is no question of unbelieving Jews being brought back to Jerusalem as a part of God’s plan. Both Jews and other unbelievers may continue to exist in Jerusalem. Of course, God will be happy if more of His chosen people (not now) believed in His Son. Tree is under the control of the people who believe in His Son and chosen people who rejected Jesus have lost control. So Israel is now means believers all over the world in Christ.

One has to come out of the shadow of the OT to see the dazzling God’s plan through His Son.




No. 16     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 7:44 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Jeff wrote: This has never happened, not to this day. But as surely as Mica 5:2 and Isaiah 53, the time is coming and it will happen. Israel is still scattered today, and the nation that occupies that strip of land the size of New Jersey on the Mediterranean coast is not the fulfillment of this prophecy.


So you agree that the forced occupation of Palestine-land and unilateral declaration of independence in 1948 is not a fulfillment of the prophecy.


I do agree that this present Israel is NOT the fulfillment of the several prophecies of God Himself returning ALL Israel, wherever they are found, back to the land. However, by necessity there must be a Jerusalem inhabited by Jews, and a temple in place for certain other events to transpire, such as those outlined in passages found in Zechariah or 2nd Thessalonians.

Jeff wrote: God, through Ezekiel, spoke far beyond the exile period. In answering you, I would agree that, other than Judah and the the remnant of tribes that went into Babylonian captivity, the rest of Israel has been lost, hence the oft-quoted "lost tribes of Israel" phrase. But they are not lost to God.


No soul is lost to God. Ultimately, He will choose a place for each soul, either in hell or in heaven. What God obliterated with regard to original twelve tribes, you want to deny and build castles out of thin air?


What God obliterated? You overstepped your bounds there. God did not say that, you said that. I already posted more than one passage well within their proper contexts that plainly state that God is not finished with Israel. Apparently they either bounced off your head or went in through your eyes only to be immediately rejected by your brain. What part of any of those passages (Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Romans, Deuteronomy) trouble you to such an extent that you refuse to acknowledge them? Okay, I know about your problem with Paul, so we can rule Romans out for you. Do you suppose Paul inserted those other passages into the those other books of the Bible as well? You are already outdone by your own denial of Scripture. Can you even begin to comprehend how difficult it is to try to discuss Bible with one who does not accept the Bible in its entirety? But Kent will be your ally for now, and he thinks Jesus already returned and somehow the rest of us missed it. What part of "every eye shall see Him" does he not understand? So go back, reread the passages I posted, and tell me where you find thin air.

Jeff wrote: And God has stated in no uncertain terms, in various places throughout Scripture, that He will return ALL Israel to their land. Now you and Kent can cherry pick your verses and leave those I have quoted, as well as those I will enlighten you both about shortly, or you can "spiritualize" them and finagle "Israel" to mean "Church" with some version of replacement theology. But that does not change the unchanging God, who has said, as quoted above, that He will bring it to pass.


We have only one tree (not two as some Messianic Jews claim) with Abraham as the root, Isaac the trunk and Joseph the braches. These branches that were not bearing fruit were cut off. The first three thousand Jews who accepted Jesus were grafted back. Through Christ, Gentiles also became braches of the same tree. All being part of Israel now. So there is no question of unbelieving Jews being brought back to Jerusalem as a part of God’s plan. Both Jews and other unbelievers may continue to exist in Jerusalem. Of course, God will be happy if more of His chosen people (not now) believed in His Son. Tree is under the control of the people who believe in His Son and chosen people who rejected Jesus have lost control. So Israel is now means believers all over the world in Christ.


So now you like Paul. Okay, but make up your mind! You use Paul's tree analogy from Romans, mixed in with a little from Christ's teaching out of the gospel of John about bearing fruit (which is a completely different passage having a completely different context), throw in the first three thousand Jews from the day of Pentecost who believed and were baptized, who, along with believing Gentiles who are now part of Israel (back to Paul's analogy), and make those into the Israel God is bringing back, thus fulfilling the prophecies of Ezekiel and Jeremiah. What a revelation! And you have an answer for that as well:

One has to come out of the shadow of the OT to see the dazzling God’s plan through His Son.


Until you accept all Scripture, to include all of Paul's writings, you have no place trying to make your point to those who accept all Scripture which includes all of Paul's writings. But you made my point. You have no clue.

No. 17     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 8:09 AM     
Here is one reason why nobody should take Dev or Kent seriously.

Dev wrote:

The spiritual temple is Jesus.



Scripture differs with Dev.

1st Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


We who are saved are become a temple for Christ to inhabit.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Don't pay attention to Dev - unless its about working on cars, he might know something about that.
No. 18     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 8:38 AM     
And yes, I did include Kent in that last post. Here's why:

bodyservant56 wrote:
One problem with futurists is the lack of properly applying prophetic statements. To many of them all prophecy is about a yet future event.


That he separates himself from what he calls, "futurists", is an indication that he has written off the possibility that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. Clearly there are many that have not yet been fulfilled. Also, he stated that "many" of these "futurists" see all prophecy about a future event. This is not a true statement. I do not know ANY who believe that; and that covers a variety of theological and eschatological mindsets. Jesus Christ fulfilled prophecy 2000 years ago, and every Christian I have ever met believes that, including all who Kent would categorize as "futurists." Where he gets these "many" he needs to explain. He also needs to explain why we are still here in a corrupt world when, if Jesus already returned, the dead in Christ would have already been resurrected and those who were alive at that time were changed and caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

1st Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


It is self-evident that has not yet happened, for if Christ already returned, then the resurrection also took place at that time.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
No. 19     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 9:14 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Here is one reason why nobody should take Dev or Kent seriously.

Dev wrote:

The spiritual temple is Jesus.



Scripture differs with Dev.

1st Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


We who are saved are become a temple for Christ to inhabit.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Don't pay attention to Dev - unless its about working on cars, he might know something about that.


No wonder you people prefer goodies of Paul with his speculations and show scant respect to Jesus' words and words of His chosen apostles. Remember John was close and dear to Jesus:

Revelation 3: 12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


So you have equated Paul to Jesus and assumed yourself as the temple!

Remember that the Holy Spirit reminds of Jesus' words not of some rank outsiders. :Hole: :headbang::no-no:

No. 20     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 9:16 AM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

No where in this parable of the kingdom do I find predestination. Its just not there in the context. Cherry picking one verse out of context and adding to it others, can devise any doctrinal statement you want to construct.


Cherry picking is a fine art, and you have perfected it Kent. You said, "No where in this parable of the kingdom do I find predestination." In effect, you cherry picked this parable to make your case, rather than take the higher road of incorporating all of Scripture. Add these cherries to your basket, if you will:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

What does that mean, Kent?

John 6:65 And He said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

What does that mean, Kent?

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

What does that mean, Kent?

2nd Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

What does that mean, Kent? And take note: even these are sent from God with a predetermined purpose.

Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.


Of course, there are also the old classics:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians_1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1st Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


And do you suppose this was predestined as well?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Prophecy is predestination.

2nd Kings 8:10 And Elisha said unto him, Go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the LORD hath shewed me that he shall surely die.
8:11 And he settled his countenance stedfastly, until he was ashamed: and the man of God wept.
8:12 And Hazael said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Sadly, even the toddlers of Bethlehem found a place in predestination, already set in stone and prophesied hundreds of years before - but keep in mind that they are very much alive in the presence of God, not having reached the age of accountability.

Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.


Why do you suppose so much was written in advance, if these things were not predetermined/predestined in some way?

No. 21     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 9:48 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:

Here is one reason why nobody should take Dev or Kent seriously.

Dev wrote:

The spiritual temple is Jesus.



Scripture differs with Dev.

1st Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


We who are saved are become a temple for Christ to inhabit.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Don't pay attention to Dev - unless its about working on cars, he might know something about that.


No wonder you people prefer goodies of Paul with his speculations and show scant respect to Jesus' words and words of His chosen apostles. Remember John was close and dear to Jesus:

Revelation 3: 12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.


So you have equated Paul to Jesus and assumed yourself as the temple!

Remember that the Holy Spirit reminds of Jesus' words not of some rank outsiders. :Hole: :headbang::no-no:



You just made my point, as you often do. You discard Paul when it suits you, and use Paul when it benefits you. The fact is, until you accept ALL of Scripture, including Romans through Philemon, you will continue to stumble. SO - for the sake of others, not you, I will show where you do err.

Dev first quotes Revelation 3:12, and then jumps to chapter 21 and verse 22. He skips the 19 chapters in between without regard. So I will add the regard.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


John was to write those things "which are" and the things "which shall be hereafter."

Revelation 2 and 3 address churches, things "which are." After these two chapters, we move into the "things which shall be hereafter". See chapter 4:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A lot happens between chapter 4 and chapter 20, which pertain to future events (though some, like Kent, see it as past tense). But we'll jump to chapter 20.

Revelation 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.


Regardless of what one might believe about chapters 4 to 19, it is evident that the first resurrection has not yet taken place. Those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God are still yet dead and buried, and are still being beheaded to this day. So these verses look to the future, when there is no devil to deceive, and Jesus Christ is reigning over this world, and His saints are reigning with Him. This lasts a thousand years.

When that thousand years are ended Satan will be released, deceive nations again, and will make a final assault against God and Christ, which will end in fire for all of them.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


After this, the dead without Christ will stand before God and be judged according to their works, and those not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Now with all of this completed, we enter into a new age, when heaven and earth pass away, and there is a new heaven and a new earth.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

And the sea was no more. Now that is a topic worthy of study. Why is there no sea in this new creation?

This is a completely different reality than anything we know or can compare. No more sea - AND no need for a sun or moon!

Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

But I have gone too far. We need to back up a verse, because there is NO MORE TEMPLE.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

So to do what Dev did not know to do, which is rightly dividing the Word of truth, we can say that Israel had her temple in Jerusalem (and will likely have a temple in the not too distant future, in fulfillment to Scripture), and that today we who are saved are a temple of God (1st Cor. 3:16-17; Col. 1:27), and that there will come a time when Lord God Almighty and the Lamb will be the temple.

Modified to add another r to er. Now corrected.
No. 22     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 9:55 AM     
CAsandie wrote:



Jeff -- Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I stand in agreement with you and encourage all to read your posts here. :2thumbs:

mod typo



Thank you Sandie! And I encourage all to likewise read your posts as well.
No. 23     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 11:11 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

You just made my point, as you often do. You discard Paul when it suits you, and use Paul when it benefits you. The fact is, until you accept ALL of Scripture, including Romans through Philemon, you will continue to stumble. SO - for the sake of others, not you, I will show where you do err.


I consider Paul as a disciple of Jesus and also as a saint, but, unfortunately, he was troubled by ego which is reflected by his association with the Chosen apostles. Therefore, I consider-- I have made it clear on number of occasions-- his writings if they complemented Jesus’ words or the works of chosen apostles. Canon is man-made. I rely on the Holy Spirit, not writings blindly that were compiled.

Dev first quotes Revelation 3:12, and then jumps to chapter 21 and verse 22. He skips the 19 chapters in between without regard. So I will add the regard.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

John was to write those things "which are" and the things "which shall be hereafter."

Revelation 2 and 3 address churches, things "which are." After these two chapters, we move into the "things which shall be hereafter". See chapter 4:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

A lot happens between chapter 4 and chapter 20, which pertain to future events (though some, like Kent, see it as past tense). But we'll jump to chapter 20.

Revelation 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Regardless of what one might believe about chapters 4 to 19, it is evident that the first resurrection has not yet taken place. Those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God are still yet dead and buried, and are still being beheaded to this day. So these verses look to the future, when there is no devil to deceive, and Jesus Christ is reigning over this world, and His saints are reigning with Him. This lasts a thousand years.

When that thousand years are ended Satan will be released, deceive nations again, and will make a final assault against God and Christ, which will end in fire for all of them.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

After this, the dead without Christ will stand before God and be judged according to their works, and those not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now with all of this completed, we enter into a new age, when heaven and earth pass away, and there is a new heaven and a new earth.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

And the sea was no more. Now that is a topic worthy of study. Why is there no sea in this new creation?

This is a completely different reality than anything we know or can compare. No more sea - AND no need for a sun or moon!

Revelation 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

But I have gone too far. We need to back up a verse, because there is NO MORE TEMPLE.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.


All these verbiage doesn’t help to defend the audacity of claiming one to be the temple of God!

So to do what Dev did not know to do, which is rightly dividing the Word of truth, we can say that Israel had her temple in Jerusalem (and will likely have a temple in the not too distant future, in fulfillment to Scripture), and that today we who are saved are a temple of God (1st Cor. 3:16-17; Col. 1:27), and that there will come a time when Lord God Almighty and the Lamb will be the temple.


Building third temple is the business of business minded Zionist politicians.:tongue: The worst thing is that deluded Christians are supporting it as a sort of fulfilment of scripture. Too bad!:headbang:

A sinful man can never become the temple at any time.:no-no:

No. 24     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 2:02 PM     

Devaprakash -- You call Paul a Saint and a liar with the same mouth. Why I have stressed the 'grave' importance of treating the Lord's Children correctly is that Paul belongs to God (not you)! May you find 'true' humbleness and grab hold of it for your very life! You quarrel about the Temple of God here?

Isaiah 66:1-2 Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the Lord. But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.

Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’

There is a relationship with the Lord that is established via covenant with man. We are in Him and He in us. Such giving is difficult to understand for Hindus as the Hindu religion is 'self' based (despite the numerous gods recognized). It is for that reason that the Hindu has difficulty understanding Christ's words here:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the off topic discussion, I want to address the temple for reconciliation of Scriptures presented please, so I use here the words of Christ (not my own) for understanding:

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.

And further scripture explaining there is One Body as far as 'belonging' and 'who is who or who is on first.'

Ephesians4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

We are His...add whatever building or structure or adjective here you want...We are His and paid for by a price unforgettable. God owns, but doesn't need a earthly temple -- it is His People.




No. 25     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 8:23 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Devaprakash -- You call Paul a Saint and a liar with the same mouth. Why I have stressed the 'grave' importance of treating the Lord's Children correctly is that Paul belongs to God (not you)! May you find 'true' humbleness and grab hold of it for your very life! You quarrel about the Temple of God here?


Paul was not liar, but an opportunist and driven by a zeal to dominate the chosen apostles. He might have been misled by the presence of the messenger of Satan in his visions. He wanted the apostleship on his own to push his agenda. So his visions and teaching need to be filtered out based on Jesus’ words and other writings. His speculations cannot be accepted for the sake of our convenience and comfort.

My thrust is to check the writings of Paul with other sources before building a theology that tickles our ears.

You say you are the temple of God based on Paul. Do you have any other source to endorse it? If not, you are propagating a blasphemous concept!

Isaiah 66:1-2 Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the Lord. But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.

Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’


In what way the above verses prove that we are His temple? How can a created man become His temple? Have realized the difference between physical temple and spiritual one? It is too complicated. We cannot simplify that with a simpleton logic.

There is a relationship with the Lord that is established via covenant with man. We are in Him and He in us. Such giving is difficult to understand for Hindus as the Hindu religion is 'self' based (despite the numerous gods recognized). It is for that reason that the Hindu has difficulty understanding Christ's words here:


You have no inkling of the vast work of Hinduism that is different from ordinary traditions and beliefs. Yes, one belief claims that man is god.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”


Yes, in essence, not that Jesus is God. You want to claim which He Himself did not claim!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the off topic discussion, I want to address the temple for reconciliation of Scriptures presented please, so I use here the words of Christ (not my own) for understanding:

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.

And further scripture explaining there is One Body as far as 'belonging' and 'who is who or who is on first.'

Ephesians4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

We are His...add whatever building or structure or adjective here you want...We are His and paid for by a price unforgettable. God owns, but doesn't need a earthly temple -- it is His People.


All these don’t prove we are the temple of God. How many Gods? Only One. How many physical temples were there? Only one. So created physical man cannot become innumerable temples. Nevertheless, the Spirit of God can dwell in our hearts.


No. 26     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 11:15 PM     
Just so you all know, I have dropped out of this thread. Jeff if you want to ask me something on my posts, you will need to do it on one of my threads. Sandi doesn't appreciate or want my contributions so I will honor her and leave my self out of her threads...have fun, play nice and remember we are all brethren of Christ and children of the Father...

Peace, out.
No. 27     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 27, 2017 at 11:39 PM     
bodyservant56 wrote:

Just so you all know, I have dropped out of this thread. Jeff if you want to ask me something on my posts, you will need to do it on one of my threads. Sandi doesn't appreciate or want my contributions so I will honor her and leave my self out of her threads...have fun, play nice and remember we are all brethren of Christ and children of the Father...

Peace, out.


And here I thought I saw an apology above for you getting this thread off topic (and I actually showed appreciation for this)?

Kent -- I only stated in the other thread that I am ending discussions on preterism with you. I stated you do not realize how you speak to others, but of other reasons are these: 1. they are becoming repetitious with many threads on the same topic to include taking over this thread and 2. I've learned what it is and disagree 'heavily' with its formation as a cult teaching that counters Christian beliefs.

I did not state anywhere that I didn't appreciate your posts (again look above at my appreciation given you) or didn't want your contributions (to other topics other than Preterism for which you have made a whole lot of threads on...so I see no reason to take over other's threads to discuss the same topic).

Shalom to you as well!


No. 28     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 1, 2017 at 4:58 PM     
On the off topic:

In mathematics, outliers are often given special attention (we test their integrity). With human religions (and there exists so many), the integrity test (imho) is more simple:

1. Does a teaching that goes against established Biblical teachings taught offer any 'worth' such as 'building' up the Body of Christ in 'unity,' or does it cause 'divisions?'

That is the litany test I'd suggest for discovery of the Truth anyway: does a teaching reinforce Christ's and the early Church teachings of surrendering to the Lord with all of one's heart, mind and soul and loving one another?

Preterism offers divisions and does not serve to build upon Christ's teachings and that of the Apostles/Disciples. Enough said.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the topic (going back to Predestination):

I have remained on the fence concerning OSAS for years, but not Predestination and have offered a scripture above for consideration:

Acts 17:26 From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’


As many already know, I support the ideology of 'limited free will,' (does our right hand always know what the left is doing in cases of charity, yet clearly we see Job being tested as we are in life making decisions everyday)?

Yet as the OP might question: How is it that man can live and never know the Lord? Do they not seek him as the verse above states was intended? There is nothing suggesting the Lord did not know this 'beforehand' of every man and to the contrary, there is a determination beforehand in the hilighted verse.

I've listened for years to the many debates of Predestination and OSAS for years, but I think the best argument for Predestination ends with a simple question:

Is there anything that Yahweh does not know?

I offer this question for anyone who does not believe in Predestination.

No. 29     Reply: And Futurism does not divide?   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jul 1, 2017 at 5:41 PM     
Preterism offers divisions and does not serve to build upon Christ's teachings and that of the Apostles/Disciples. Enough said.


Sorry but again you give a very false argument. If you go by popular belief as the judge or test of doctrine, and the presentation of the truth as creating a grave division in the body of Christ, then you judge Martin Luther as being a very gross divider of the body of Christ.

In the 1500s, the Roman Catholic church doctrine was considered holy from God. It was not only church law, but also the law of most Christian countries, the breaking of it punishable by jail time and up to death.

Martin Luther who was a Roman Catholic Father and Monk, posted his thesis against Church doctrine, as an attempt to bring reformation to the church. The church leaders would not accept correction from a mere monk, and excommunicated Martin after giving him time to recant.

Martin went on to form a community of ex-RCC monks and nuns, who then carried out his teaching across Europe. His teaching created the first major division in the unified body of Christ since the first split in the late Roman period where the kings of the Eastern and Western Roman Empire divided which also created the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church.

Followed by Luther was Calvin, who learned from Luther, Zwigler and many others, creating further divisions in the body of Christ.

If you wish to number me among these great men of God, I feel a little bit humbled as I in no way compare myself to them, so thank you.

As to divisions in the body of Christ, fundamentalist dispensationalist futurists will not even allow one to remain in one of their local churches if they do not completely agree with the teaching that John Darby taught.

As I am sure if I wanted to join your church and told David Jeremiah that I held a different eschatological view then he does, that I would not be welcomed in "his church". I have heard that before, and at that time my view as still futurist, just not pre-trib.

Divisions happen because of a lack of love for the brethren, not difference in doctrine. I can fellowship and work along side anyone who claims the name of Christ, because I love the brethren. Only when you place doctrine above love, do you arrive where you will not accept another believer because of doctrine. I fear that you are arriving there Sandi.
No. 30     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 1, 2017 at 6:08 PM     
Kent wrote: Only when you place doctrine above love, do you arrive where you will not accept another believer because of doctrine. I fear that you are arriving there Sandi.


Why do you fear for me when you hijack my thread with your own agenda and call that respect and love? You apologize and take that back? Why do you profess to be a Christian Brother, yet you and I do not have a shared hope in Christ's return and Christ's reign that includes His Promises in Scripture? You see the promises fulfilled and I see the elimination of suffering to come in the Lord's timing, but currently see satan's reign over the governments of this earth and many.

Clearly, Kent you seek quarrel. As stated many times to you: I am not interested.

The Jesuit cult belief of Preterism as a "Doctrine" counters Christians beliefs as well as the Commandments of Christ (such believers forgo baptism, communion and other things commanded of followers). It is further a Bizarre (that pretends death, pain and suffering is not occurring) and does nothing to further the Gospel of our Lord. This is truth as far as the Gospel of the Lord for which you persecute Christians for believing in:

Philippians 1:27Nevertheless, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending side by side for the faith of the gospel, 28without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a clear sign of their destruction but of your salvation, and it is from God. 29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

You can insult me 'personally' all you want (do you recognize the difference between insulting one's beliefs over the person when you profess your great love for the Brethren)?, but it will not change the truth of the Gospel of the Lord and Savior and God Whom I answer to and fear 'solely.'

No. 31     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Jul 1, 2017 at 8:33 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



I had to get back to this statement. Dev, the only reason I answer you or Kent on this is not because of you two - you both will continue to believe what you want regardless of any truth revealed. If I don't counter everything you two put on here, it does not by any means mean that I am not able - it just gets redundant. All your arguments have been adequately answered by either myself, Sandie, or others in past threads and anyone who really desires to dig them up can find them.

But here is what you seem to miss on this. It is a big deal because throughout history there have been targeted attempts to wipe the Jewish people from the face of the earth. Yet they are still here. You also miss the point that "religions" as belief systems (you mentioned "billions of other people in other religions") can be held by anybody. I can be a Wiccan, and so can you. I can be a Muslim and so can you. But the Jews were born into the heritage of God. Their religion is who they are by blood. You may convert to Judaism, but you will never be a physical descendant of Jacob, and God has, in His providence, preserved these people in spite of all attempts to destroy them. So, other than the fact that the Bible predicted that they would abide in unbelief (which is unusual for them as the Messiah came according to their own prophecies and from their own people; but not unusual for other religions that never had such prophecy and never had a part in fulfilling the promised Seed), and here they are still yet abiding in unbelief, the fact that they are still here, an indestructible race, provides testimony to the truthfulness of the Bible.

Esther 7:4 For we have been sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated.

No. 32     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 1, 2017 at 8:40 PM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



I had to get back to this statement. Dev, the only reason I answer you or Kent on this is not because of you two - you both will continue to believe what you want regardless of any truth revealed. If I don't counter everything you two put on here, it does not by any means mean that I am not able - it just gets redundant. All your arguments have been adequately answered by either myself, Sandie, or others in past threads and anyone who really desires to dig them up can find them.

But here is what you seem to miss on this. It is a big deal because throughout history there have been targeted attempts to wipe the Jewish people from the face of the earth. Yet they are still here. You also miss the point that "religions" as belief systems (you mentioned "billions of other people in other religions") can be held by anybody. I can be a Wiccan, and so can you. I can be a Muslim and so can you. But the Jews were born into the heritage of God. Their religion is who they are by blood. You may convert to Judaism, but you will never be a physical descendant of Jacob, and God has, in His providence, preserved these people in spite of all attempts to destroy them. So, other than the fact that the Bible predicted that they would abide in unbelief (which is unusual for them as the Messiah came according to their own prophecies and from their own people; but not unusual for other religions that never had such prophecy and never had a part in fulfilling the promised Seed), and here they are still yet abiding in unbelief, the fact that they are still here, an indestructible race, provides testimony to the truthfulness of the Bible.

Esther 7:4 For we have been sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated.



Great post Jeff. Some sobering truths for ears who can hear and for those who hold true humility. :thumb_up:
No. 33     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jul 2, 2017 at 5:17 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Kent wrote: Only when you place doctrine above love, do you arrive where you will not accept another believer because of doctrine. I fear that you are arriving there Sandi.


Why do you fear for me when you hijack my thread with your own agenda and call that respect and love? You apologize and take that back? Why do you profess to be a Christian Brother, yet you and I do not have a shared hope in Christ's return and Christ's reign that includes His Promises in Scripture? You see the promises fulfilled and I see the elimination of suffering to come in the Lord's timing, but currently see satan's reign over the governments of this earth and many.

Clearly, Kent you seek quarrel. As stated many times to you: I am not interested.

The Jesuit cult belief of Preterism as a "Doctrine" counters Christians beliefs as well as the Commandments of Christ (such believers forgo baptism, communion and other things commanded of followers). It is further a Bizarre (that pretends death, pain and suffering is not occurring) and does nothing to further the Gospel of our Lord. This is truth as far as the Gospel of the Lord for which you persecute Christians for believing in:

Philippians 1:27Nevertheless, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending side by side for the faith of the gospel, 28without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a clear sign of their destruction but of your salvation, and it is from God. 29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

You can insult me 'personally' all you want (do you recognize the difference between insulting one's beliefs over the person when you profess your great love for the Brethren)?, but it will not change the truth of the Gospel of the Lord and Savior and God Whom I answer to and fear 'solely.'



I reply to you because you address me and continue to address me in your posts. I did retract and apologize for earlier statements, but your dogmatic slanders against me call me to reply to you. Sad that you can not discuss a topic you admit you are ignorant of, with more decorum.

The Jesuit teaching is not the start of preterit doctrine, as you erroneously and dogmatically state. If you were a real seeking after the truth you would read what the Jesuit you reference really wrote, it was nothing at all like preterism, instead it was a historic view that applies seven historic ages based on the seven churches of Revelation, a view I have read in dispensational futurist doctrine taught by some. But then you are just after ending a discussion and debate that you dogmatically assume you have already one...I apologize for trying to educate you out of your ignorance.

I am sure though that your pastor, David Jeremiah is proud of your dogmatism....
No. 34     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 2, 2017 at 10:10 AM     
Wiki was correct on this:

Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy - Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614)—during the Counter-Reformation.


Regardless and this is is true: I do not care who or how many believe in cult beliefs. I do not follow men, but the Bible. The Mormons have a large organization with numbers (and established religion who believe in Christ), but have cult beliefs as well. The muslim outnumber Christians, but I believe they have false beliefs.

Kent, you can keep calling me ignorant (and you bring up Dr. Jeremiah twice here?), but I have not attacked you personally. Your passion for your beliefs is why you believe otherwise and attack me and others personally (but apparently you can't see telling one to 'keep searching' as an insult to their own established beliefs). I sure which you would take your passion held on Preterism and focus that passion on Christ solely -- you would find less quarrel in your heart. As far as Dr. Jeremiah (you attempt to throw ill 'personal' suggestions at me twice)...Baptists do not believe in Preterism. I encourage you to call and discuss the matter with Dr. Jeremiah though (he does offer personal counsel).

As Jeff has stated above, I do not post for you here, Kent. You are convinced of your beliefs that you attempt to teach here. This is a Public forum with diverse views, despite the name of the site. If it's agreement you desire, then you would need to find a preterism forum (if one exists).

Walk in peace!

No. 35     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Jul 2, 2017 at 11:26 AM     
Jeff74996 wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Jeff74996 wrote:


Israel's unbelief even at this present time (save for the few Messianic Jews - Romans 11:5) is a witness and a testimony of the truthfulness of the Word of God. That Israel still exists today, outside of Christ, is a testimony to God's preservation of His covenant people.


That is not a big deal. There are billions of other people in other religions that have continued to exist.



I had to get back to this statement. Dev, the only reason I answer you or Kent on this is not because of you two - you both will continue to believe what you want regardless of any truth revealed. If I don't counter everything you two put on here, it does not by any means mean that I am not able - it just gets redundant. All your arguments have been adequately answered by either myself, Sandie, or others in past threads and anyone who really desires to dig them up can find them.

But here is what you seem to miss on this. It is a big deal because throughout history there have been targeted attempts to wipe the Jewish people from the face of the earth. Yet they are still here. You also miss the point that "religions" as belief systems (you mentioned "billions of other people in other religions") can be held by anybody. I can be a Wiccan, and so can you. I can be a Muslim and so can you. But the Jews were born into the heritage of God. Their religion is who they are by blood. You may convert to Judaism, but you will never be a physical descendant of Jacob, and God has, in His providence, preserved these people in spite of all attempts to destroy them. So, other than the fact that the Bible predicted that they would abide in unbelief (which is unusual for them as the Messiah came according to their own prophecies and from their own people; but not unusual for other religions that never had such prophecy and never had a part in fulfilling the promised Seed), and here they are still yet abiding in unbelief, the fact that they are still here, an indestructible race, provides testimony to the truthfulness of the Bible.

Esther 7:4 For we have been sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated.


With the destruction of the temple with its records and scattering of the people and now mix up of people,they have no solid foundation to trace back their roots. Like people of other religions, they may exist with their own fictitious claim of blood-lineage. No way it glorifies God!

Do you agree that old 12 tribes have reduced to basically one with all that claim? What is the use, if they get destroyed like others without the way, life and Messiah?

I am neither amused nor amazed with their claims of existence!
No. 36     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  bodyservant56   Gender: M   Age: 60   on  Jul 2, 2017 at 12:09 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Wiki was correct on this:

Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy - Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614)—during the Counter-Reformation.


Regardless and this is is true: I do not care who or how many believe in cult beliefs. I do not follow men, but the Bible. The Mormons have a large organization with numbers (and established religion who believe in Christ), but have cult beliefs as well. The muslim outnumber Christians, but I believe they have false beliefs.

Kent, you can keep calling me ignorant (and you bring up Dr. Jeremiah twice here?), but I have not attacked you personally. Your passion for your beliefs is why you believe otherwise and attack me and others personally (but apparently you can't see telling one to 'keep searching' as an insult to their own established beliefs). I sure which you would take your passion held on Preterism and focus that passion on Christ solely -- you would find less quarrel in your heart. As far as Dr. Jeremiah (you attempt to throw ill 'personal' suggestions at me twice)...Baptists do not believe in Preterism. I encourage you to call and discuss the matter with Dr. Jeremiah though (he does offer personal counsel).

As Jeff has stated above, I do not post for you here, Kent. You are convinced of your beliefs that you attempt to teach here. This is a Public forum with diverse views, despite the name of the site. If it's agreement you desire, then you would need to find a preterism forum (if one exists).

Walk in peace!



No the wiki is not correct, as you have pointed out, wiki is not a totally reliable source. It can provide some ideas to consider and research further, but is not a considered reliable authority, and with your opinion I do agree. I have research a bit on the matter and Alcazar's teaching is a mixture of preterit and futurist , written in part to take the heat off of the Pope because of Protestant claims that the Pope was The Anti-Christ. If you read more you too would come to that conclusion.

As to being dogmatic on preterism I am not, but am taking the proponent stance as the way of testing it fully. And so far I see it fitting perfectly with scripture.
No. 37     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 2, 2017 at 5:42 PM     
On the topic (going back to Predestination):

I have remained on the fence concerning OSAS for years, but not Predestination. Repeating a scripture above given for consideration:

Acts 17:26 From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’

As many already know, I support the ideology of 'limited free will,' (does our right hand always know what the left is doing in cases of charity, yet clearly we see Job being tested as we are in life making decisions everyday)? As far as our knowledge as the OP might question: How is it that man can live and never know the Lord? Do they not seek him as the verse above states was intended? There is nothing suggesting the Lord did not know this 'beforehand' of every man and to the contrary, there is a determination beforehand in the hilighted verse.

I've listened for years to the many debates of Predestination and OSAS for years, but I think the best argument for Predestination ends with a simple question:

Is there anything that God does not know?

I offer this question for anyone who does not believe in Predestination.
No. 38     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 28, 2017 at 4:25 PM     
Coming back just to offer some more scriptures on being called...


Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



1 Cor 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


The banquet is full of those being called, but what of their wrong clothing and it is seen the chosen too declined (going back to the OP).

No. 39     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  YoBro-MOTBOC   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 30, 2017 at 3:59 PM     
For me to truly understand the subject material (which is very interesting) I need to know what OSAS means, thanks
No. 40     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 30, 2017 at 6:27 PM     
YoBro-MOTBOC wrote:

For me to truly understand the subject material (which is very interesting) I need to know what OSAS means, thanks


OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved

Providing another scripture here for discussion:

Hebrew 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


I have above hi-lighted the two portions that might bridge the debate held in forums so often (once saved always saved versus one can fall from His glory and loose salvation).
No. 41     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  YoBro-MOTBOC   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 31, 2017 at 5:30 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

YoBro-MOTBOC wrote:

For me to truly understand the subject material (which is very interesting) I need to know what OSAS means, thanks


OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved

Providing another scripture here for discussion:

Hebrew 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


I have above hi-lighted the two portions that might bridge the debate held in forums so often (once saved always saved versus one can fall from His glory and loose salvation).


OK, I do understand that concept. I do hold on to His promise from
Hebrew 13
6 I will not fail thee, neither forsake thee:

This is more related to OUR marriage with Him, the one verse though would be out of context unless that whole chapter be studied.

I say "Let it be according to your faith"'

A study on the very word {save, salvation,, etc.)needs a closer look, I would have to search all my documents concerning this, but at the moment I have the original tongue (Interlinear) book open, thanks you for ansering my question.

The last open prayer to our FATHER is a subject I am looking for in my saved documents.

I want to also add CAsandie I blame you for my return to open discussion(s). SO again thank you
No. 42     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 31, 2017 at 7:21 PM     
I agree about the entire chapter often being needed to be read in understanding a single verse. In so many cases, misinterpretations are for the lack of understanding the full context.

We can take single verses though to either open (or sometimes close discussions). (In the OP for example, I offer verses only to open discussion on Predestination and understanding things from an 'entire' Biblical view (Christ's Gospel that we share in).

Pastor John wrote: I want to also add CAsandie I blame you for my return to open discussion(s). SO again thank you


(I look forward to your additional thoughts).




No. 43     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Alter2Ego   Gender: F   Age: 40   on  Sep 24, 2017 at 9:02 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Many of us have seen the debates here in Theo over predestination and OSAS, but I do not believe I've ever sat through a teaching as I have last Sunday that was so very encouraging. I'd like to share some of this here.

First a question:

What does the following verse mean to you?

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

In John 6 we read a great deal happening at the time (miracles next to those leaving Christ) and we hear Christ say:

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


There is no question you are predestined to know the truth. The question remains as asked above are you called? are you chosen? What are the differences? (I'm allowing others here to answer this; the answers to this question might bridge the differences seen in OSAS in understanding what Predestination is and that it exists).

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


CAsandie

There is nothing within the context of Matthew 22:14 or John 6:44 or within the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that so much as hint at predestination. In fact, all three of those verses, when read within context, contradict the predestination doctrine.

I will direct you to the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters) in a separate post.
No. 44     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 26, 2017 at 10:48 AM     
Welcome alter2ego.

I am fully aware of the 'direct' scriptures on predestination. What I offer here is different (I am fully aware of this as well).

God still chooses. He does not change. Do you as well believe that this scripture does not display God's Authority and predestination due to the context being 'one's importance with the Lord and needing not to worry?':

Luke 12:7 7And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. 8I tell you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God.

Yet, if I offer the scriptures that you feel in context, will an answer be given?

A hand full of Predestination scriptures (there are many more):

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. – 2 Thes 2:13

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. – 1 Peter 1:2

knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; – 1 Thes 1:4

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, – Ephesians 1:5,11

but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; – 1 Cor 2:7

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. – Romans 8:28- 30

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; – Rom 8:33

(there are many more scriptures).


I believe the entire Bible tells the same story throughout (in little books, form the Old Covenant to the New. It tells us of things we ought to know in scripture that might be speaking of a different topic [so we ought to know the difference of being called or chosen and that this has been the Lord's Way since the beginning of time] ... Do we know this?

All things to God's Glory (not man's; not mine; not yours, but His. From the Great Flood to the burning of Sodom and of fallen men -- the Lord's Will can not and will not be denied.

Romans 9:15-16 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Thank you for your post and interest here. Appreciated.


No. 45     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 50   on  Sep 28, 2017 at 12:05 PM     
Hi Sandie

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

What this verse mean to me is. We should be at watch for we do not know when we could be gathered. I want the King to find me with my wedding garments on.


Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

What here is the wedding garment? Why did he not get one?

If only the predestined are the chosen, then what of the not chosen? Are they predestined to hell? If so then more are predestined to hell than heaven.


I believe we have the predestined, and the whosoevers.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

John 3:16 Whosoever believes in Him....

Are some predestined to hell?????

Interesting topic.

Thanks Sandie
Sandie I want you to know I feel this is not about debating to prove I'm right. I really truly want to know the truth. I also believe there is no point if it is not a two way debate someone else is really wanting the same then this would be pointless. I believe I could just go set at a bar some where and debate with them on which beer is the best.



No. 46     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Sep 28, 2017 at 1:45 PM     
another84 wrote: Hi Sandie

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

What this verse mean to me is. We should be at watch for we do not know when we could be gathered. I want the King to find me with my wedding garments on.


What an awesome answer! This answer brings me joy, even as my answer is different (so yours perhaps is greater).

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

What here is the wedding garment? Why did he not get one?

If only the predestined are the chosen, then what of the not chosen? Are they predestined to hell? If so then more are predestined to hell than heaven.


I believe we have the predestined, and the whosoevers.


Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

John 3:16 Whosoever believes in Him....

Are some predestined to hell?????

Interesting topic.

Thanks Sandie
Sandie I want you to know I feel this is not about debating to prove I'm right. I really truly want to know the truth. I also believe there is no point if it is not a two way debate someone else is really wanting the same then this would be pointless. I believe I could just go set at a bar some where and debate with them on which beer is the best.


Another -- and I believe this and know this of you and it is why I appreciate your posts so much. Thank you.

To answer the question if some are predestined to hell ...

Maybe we should consider Judas, Christ's traitor. I do not know the answer if Judas was truly repentant when he tried to give the pieces of silver to the temple. We later see Judas commit suicide and demons leave his body. While Christ is the greater love story I have ever heard, Judas is the greatest tragedy I've ever heard.

We see Christ knew of Judas's betrayal even before hand in scripture (betrayed with a kiss), so it is reasonable to say that Christ knew as well of Judas's fate and remorse at the end.

I think predestination though is a matter of salvation and not hell. I say this because we know there are names in the book of life (these already chosen) and then there are those that will face 'judgement.' Judgement has not been determined for these it would appear (otherwise a great descent to hell would just be ordered much as the book of life is a direct ascent to life), so I personally would say: no, there is not predestination to hell.

As for the Wedding: it is my greater hope as well to be clothed in His Grace/properly adorned. You have held great insight.

Thanks again for your posts. They are appreciated as are you. I too seek greater understanding (and quarrel/debate brings little worth over that of what we are taught, which is to 'reason' the Scriptures together and respect one another.
No. 47     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 5, 2017 at 7:48 PM     
There are those who have been predestined to salvation.

Ephesians 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 
1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 
1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 
1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 


The above passage restricts predestination to Paul and the other early disciples who first trusted Christ. They were predestined. The use of "us" bears that out. The turning point from "us" to "you" (the recipients of the letter, which includes those reading it today) is in verse 13. But note the continuation of "us" and "we" before that point.

Ephesians 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 
1:8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 
1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 
1:10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 
1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 
1:12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 


Now comes the transition:

Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 
1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 


The first part, where predestination is used, it is restricted to those early disciples, or apostles who first believed and were also first commissioned to preach the gospel. The transition includes the recipients of the epistle into the sealing power of the Holy Spirit upon believing, and is our guarantee until the day of redemption. We have been purchased by God, and no longer belong to ourselves, or the prince of this world. But it does not say that we have been predestined in this passage.

But Romans does say that all who have come to faith in Christ are predestined.

Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 
8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 


The statement here is more generalized, and can include all believers. God did foreknow all of us, and the fact that we believe means that we heard something, we heard the call. We believe God, and are justified by faith. I personally believe this passage covers all who come to faith in Christ. We were all predestined.

Jesus is even more clear on this.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

"All that the Father giveth" may be in the present tense, but "shall come to me" speaks to the future. That we came to Jesus is a very good indicator that we have already been given to Him of the Father. We have been predestined.

That God chooses us is more evident in Scripture than our choosing to follow Him. The Corinthians believed, but who did the choosing?

1st Corinthians 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 
1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 
1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 
1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence. 
1:30  But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1:31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 

Nobody has chosen God of his own accord. If that had been the case with any of us, we would have something to boast about. I could say how smart I am because I chose rightly. But I cannot do that. God chose me, and He is into choosing the foolish, the weak, the despised - which does not make me look so good. The phrase, "whosoever will" is used in Scripture both positively and negatively. The only evangelistic passage that appears to be a call out to anyone who will hear is found in Revelation 22:17 - but that can apply to those who have a hearing ear, because not everyone is thirsty for God.

Proverbs 20:12  The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

Some have been predestined to damnation. One was Judas.

John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled

Others include the both the beast and the false prophet, and those who follow them.

Revelation 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 
19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 


Others include false teachers.

2 Peter 2:12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jude 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 


God does create people for destruction. You may not like that, but it is what it is.

Romans 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 
9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 
9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 


Some were predestined for bad, like Judas.

Matthew 18:7  Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 

And here is another interesting thing to think about:

Deuteronomy 13:1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
13:2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,'
13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.


So here we have a situation where somebody comes along and has some interesting ideas that lead away from God and into other things. To you or me, these people may have some good intentions, and we certainly would not want to see them burning in hell. But what is really going on here? Is what we are seeing and sensing about these other people who seem so nice the true reality? God says He is testing us. And He will use our own children to test us as well.

Deuteronomy 13:6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which neither you nor your fathers have known,
13:7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other,
13:8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him.
13:9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.


That is what the Law said. Today we would not kill anyone, but if God tests our faithfulness to Him through these people then what do we make of these people? Some may come to faith in Christ at at later time, some may have even professed faith in Christ at an earlier time, and then seem to change for the worse, and work to draw us away. Just something to think about along this pilgrimage.

But then there is something else to include in all of this. And that is the fact that we (believers) will judge the world.

Daniel 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

1st Corinthians 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!


So - is it possible that on the day of judgment, that we might have a say? At present I have a cousin who is very involved in spiritism (for lack of a better word). She believes that the spirits of those she loved are still hovering around watching over her. As far as I know she doesn't have faith in Christ. But if I have a say on the day of judgment, this woman took my wife and myself into her home the day my son died, and ministered to us in our time of need. If it's in my power to do so, I'm putting in a good word for her, in spite of her lack of faith in Christ. But when Jesus judges the nations, and as far as my understanding of the Scriptures allows, we may very well be with Him on that day, I wonder if they qualify for this:

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Matthew 25:40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

No. 48     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 9, 2017 at 4:12 AM     
Ecclesiastes 3:1  To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

John 9:1  And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
9:2  And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 
9:3  Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 


No. 49     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 9, 2017 at 9:49 AM     

Jeff, All very valid scriptures to consider (and some that might make me reconsider whether or not some are predestined to hell)...particularly this scripture (so I am examining it below by hilighting the areas that require special attention):

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

So here we see 'made' given way to predestined to be destroyed and then we see 'in their own' corruption?

Do you have thoughts on the later?

Thanks.

This is a great verse when taken to heart:

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


Should we suggest predestined for suffering though?

As a child, when suffering, I thought it is good if I suffer, so another might not have to. Can our suffering be manifest to God (good) would be the second question and should we take this from the above scripture?

For me, I have watched the blame game so long and I often see those 'closer' to the Lord suffering over those closer to satan. So I consider the book of Job and we see satan accusing Job (it is what satan does) and Job proving strong in his love for the Lord. Here we see the work of the Lord purposed against the suffering (blindness).


I appreciate the scriptures provided. As we see, 'many' less obvious scriptures do address predestination.




No. 50     Reply: Re: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 56   on  Oct 9, 2017 at 5:22 PM     
CAsandie wrote:


Jeff, All very valid scriptures to consider (and some that might make me reconsider whether or not some are predestined to hell)...particularly this scripture (so I am examining it below by hilighting the areas that require special attention):

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

So here we see 'made' given way to predestined to be destroyed and then we see 'in their own' corruption?

Do you have thoughts on the later?

Thanks.

This is a great verse when taken to heart:

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


Should we suggest predestined for suffering though?

As a child, when suffering, I thought it is good if I suffer, so another might not have to. Can our suffering be manifest to God (good) would be the second question and should we take this from the above scripture?

For me, I have watched the blame game so long and I often see those 'closer' to the Lord suffering over those closer to satan. So I consider the book of Job and we see satan accusing Job (it is what satan does) and Job proving strong in his love for the Lord. Here we see the work of the Lord purposed against the suffering (blindness).


I appreciate the scriptures provided. As we see, 'many' less obvious scriptures do address predestination.


I just read a wonderful devotion on suffering by Spurgeon. Let me share that.



"Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant?" Numbers 11:11

Our heavenly Father sends us frequent troubles to try our faith. If our faith be worth anything, it will stand the test. Gilt is afraid of fire, but gold is not: the paste gem dreads to be touched by the diamond, but the true jewel fears no test. It is a poor faith which can only trust God when friends are true, the body full of health, and the business profitable; but that is true faith which holds by the Lord's faithfulness when friends are gone, when the body is sick, when spirits are depressed, and the light of our Father's countenance is hidden. A faith which can say, in the direst trouble, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him," is heaven-born faith. The Lord afflicts his servants to glorify himself, for he is greatly glorified in the graces of his people, which are his own handiwork. When "tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope," the Lord is honoured by these growing virtues. We should never know the music of the harp if the strings were left untouched; nor enjoy the juice of the grape if it were not trodden in the winepress; nor discover the sweet perfume of cinnamon if it were not pressed and beaten; nor feel the warmth of fire if the coals were not utterly consumed. The wisdom and power of the great Workman are discovered by the trials through which his vessels of mercy are permitted to pass. Present afflictions tend also to heighten future joy. There must be shades in the picture to bring out the beauty of the lights. Could we be so supremely blessed in heaven, if we had not known the curse of sin and the sorrow of earth? Will not peace be sweeter after conflict, and rest more welcome after toil? Will not the recollection of past sufferings enhance the bliss of the glorified? There are many other comfortable answers to the question with which we opened our brief meditation, let us muse upon it all day long.
- Spurgeon

https://www.heartlight.org/spurgeon/1007-am.html#.WdijInQPSxs.facebook



Even suffering serves its purpose. That doesn't mean I have to like it. But knowing something of what is illustrated in the devotion above helps me understand it in a better light. Jesus spoke of childbirth, and the suffering involved in that. Many women, and Rachel is the Biblical example, have died in giving birth. But so did Jesus.

I'm going to re-quote your first question.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

So here we see 'made' given way to predestined to be destroyed and then we see 'in their own' corruption?

Do you have thoughts on the later?


I did use that passage, and understand the comparison used may not necessitate a predestination so much as comparing false teachers to wolves or lions who do present a very real danger and need to be destroyed; but the construction of the passage can carry the possibility of predestination - which the ESV seems to bring out more clearly.

2nd Peter 2:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

Standing alone, I would go more with the mere comparison - but alongside the passage from Jude, and then add to that what God said in Deuteronomy 13:3, it makes me think. And I post what I do, not to say - as if I completely agree with the point I am bringing out - so much as getting others to think as well.

But now you are making me think! And that is a good thing. So here's my thoughts on your question at this moment. The laws of the universe, like gravity or erosion, or aging as we are all doing, are pretty much set in stone. They will happen, as if predestined. So when you consider all under sin, all are predestined to the consequences of sin. But now we encounter a greater Law, such as causing iron to swim, or changing the skin of a leprous man to the skin of a youth. And on this side of the cross we might call it the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which makes us free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2). And while God may use a false teacher (who has been made to be taken and destroyed as are all who are under the law of sin and death) to test His people, God is also well able to place that same false teacher under His higher Law - and I believe He has done that - maybe a million times.
No. 51     Reply: Re: Predestination revisited   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Oct 13, 2017 at 2:51 PM     
Jeff -- Thank you for your answer here and for this (it is truly lovely and I enjoyed reading this):

"Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant?" Numbers 11:11
Our heavenly Father sends us frequent troubles to try our faith. If our faith be worth anything, it will stand the test. Gilt is afraid of fire, but gold is not: the paste gem dreads to be touched by the diamond, but the true jewel fears no test. It is a poor faith which can only trust God when friends are true, the body full of health, and the business profitable; but that is true faith which holds by the Lord's faithfulness when friends are gone, when the body is sick, when spirits are depressed, and the light of our Father's countenance is hidden. A faith which can say, in the direst trouble, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him," is heaven-born faith. The Lord afflicts his servants to glorify himself, for he is greatly glorified in the graces of his people, which are his own handiwork. When "tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope," the Lord is honoured by these growing virtues. We should never know the music of the harp if the strings were left untouched; nor enjoy the juice of the grape if it were not trodden in the winepress; nor discover the sweet perfume of cinnamon if it were not pressed and beaten; nor feel the warmth of fire if the coals were not utterly consumed. The wisdom and power of the great Workman are discovered by the trials through which his vessels of mercy are permitted to pass. Present afflictions tend also to heighten future joy. There must be shades in the picture to bring out the beauty of the lights. Could we be so supremely blessed in heaven, if we had not known the curse of sin and the sorrow of earth? Will not peace be sweeter after conflict, and rest more welcome after toil? Will not the recollection of past sufferings enhance the bliss of the glorified? There are many other comfortable answers to the question with which we opened our brief meditation, let us muse upon it all day long.
- Spurgeon