MeetChristians.com Tour

Private
Mailbox

Quick
Search

Detailed
Search

Member
Forums

Live
Chat

Polls
space

User
Tools

Help
space

Log Off
space
MeetChristians.com / Forums / Biblical & Theological Issues

No. 0     Original Topic:  If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 13, 2016 at 5:30 PM   Viewed 5995 times     
I've thought about this several times over the almost 20 yrs. ago desertion of my own ex-wife. More recently Peter's similar situation plus some discussion of 'professing' Christians has increased my interest. Finally, my daily studies of Barnhouse's Romans, which has amazingly addressed current events here on MC almost as if Barnhouse was still alive and a MC member (he passed in 1960), has given m some new input and thoughts which have caused me to to take an even deeper look at this issue than ever before, and let me assure you I have studied it extensively in the past.

So what do YOU think or believe?

Now people often ask for scriptural verses backing others positions, and certainly that is great but please give your biblical reasoning behind the use of those verses also.

No. 1     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Jeff74996   Gender: M   Age: 55   on  Oct 13, 2016 at 6:19 PM     
True Christians do a lot of wrong things. I've done a lot of wrong things, and though I have not left my marriage, I don't think the specificity of the wrong makes too much of a difference. We have passages in Scripture that speak of the chastening of the Lord. I believe that happens. Regarding marriage, I do know a woman who left her husband - both Christians - but the husband was truly bipolar, on and off medication. He was extremely abusive and nasty on his down side. On his up side, he would spend all their money. She was sixty when she left him, having put up with his abuse for many years. I know of another woman who left her husband and little boy for no apparent reason. I am not sure she was a Christian at all, though she did go to church and seemed Christian enough during the marriage. But maybe there was something in that situation we don't know about.

And then we have this passage:

1 Titus 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

But then again, look at the book of Hosea. Gomer was sought out and bought back, though she left her husband and lived in pleasure for a time.
No. 2     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 13, 2016 at 6:33 PM     
Thanks for posting, Jeff.

Jeff74996 wrote:

True Christians do a lot of wrong things.


Yes, was expecting this response. I'll address it later after more discussion comes in, so please hang in there, buddy.
No. 3     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Caroline723   Gender: F   Age: 59   on  Oct 13, 2016 at 7:56 PM     
That's a tough question, and I'm not going to give a long answer or scripture. I just want to say briefly that I don't believe in OSAS and I think that some people can be Christians, then wander from the faith and that's what happens in at least some (if not most) cases when a Christian abandons their spouse unjustly or unscripturally.
No. 4     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  Oct 13, 2016 at 8:12 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

I've thought about this several times over the almost 20 yrs. ago desertion of my own ex-wife. More recently Peter's similar situation plus some discussion of 'professing' Christians has increased my interest. Finally, my daily studies of Barnhouse's Romans, which has amazingly addressed current events here on MC almost as if Barnhouse was still alive and a MC member (he passed in 1960), has given m some new input and thoughts which have caused me to to take an even deeper look at this issue than ever before, and let me assure you I have studied it extensively in the past.

So what do YOU think or believe?

Now people often ask for scriptural verses backing others positions, and certainly that is great but please give your biblical reasoning behind the use of those verses also.


I don't how much this helps.

I accepted the Lord as my Savior when I was in Corvallis, OR, for higher studies alone with my wife and young son in India. We are from Hindu Devanga Brahmin community. When I went back my family members did not like my stand. Nevertheless, my wife continued with me and we had another son. I continued to witness for Christ, but did not force her for acceptance. I did not attend any church. Only after about ten years of my witnessing, she and our two sons finally accepted Jesus, and we started attending church and got baptized also.

A marriage according to Christian principle has no room for anyone deserting his/her spouse. Even if one is a non-believer, deserting is improper and is against Christian values.

1 Corinthians 7: 10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
No. 5     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 14, 2016 at 12:17 AM     
Stormchaser,

I do believe a true Christian can leave a marriage unbiblically. True Christians can and do commit serious sins (adultery, unjustified divorce, etc).

What I have experienced is that they will "justify" their behavior and if another Christian questions them, they will immediately throw the "how dare you judge me, only God can judge".

Sandie touched on this in another post but as Christians we are called to judge rightly and use God's Word to do the righteous judgment.

Did I see my divorce coming? Absolutely not. She gave no warning, no attempt to reconcile, no attempt for Godly healing.

Was it Godly what she did? Absolutely not. It was not only ungodly but sinister and quite disturbing. If I had done that to her I would have been viewed as a vile spouse and a vile Christian.

Yet, I do believe she is a saved Christian. Nobody knows for sure, only God knows, but when a spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, it really makes you question who they are.



No. 6     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  Oct 14, 2016 at 4:43 AM     
Peter4 wrote:

Stormchaser,

I do believe a true Christian can leave a marriage unbiblically. True Christians can and do commit serious sins (adultery, unjustified divorce, etc).

What I have experienced is that they will "justify" their behavior and if another Christian questions them, they will immediately throw the "how dare you judge me, only God can judge".

Sandie touched on this in another post but as Christians we are called to judge rightly and use God's Word to do the righteous judgment.

Did I see my divorce coming? Absolutely not. She gave no warning, no attempt to reconcile, no attempt for Godly healing.

Was it Godly what she did? Absolutely not. It was not only ungodly but sinister and quite disturbing. If I had done that to her I would have been viewed as a vile spouse and a vile Christian.

Yet, I do believe she is a saved Christian. Nobody knows for sure, only God knows, but when a spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, it really makes you question who they are.


You seem to have come up with contradictory statements. No true Christian will desert his/her spouse.

No one can be sure of who is going to be saved. We are not gods to justify that. Only God knows who is going to be saved at the end of one's life.
No. 7     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 14, 2016 at 8:29 PM     
I'm not going to come out and say absolutely NO marital abandonment is possible for a Christian. Obviously scripture itself gives one clearly, and there are some Christians who argue from less clear lines and enlarging interpretational definitions.

So let's for the moment accept both the clear and the unclear but still principled positions and set them aside in favor of the obvious non-biblical and even ungoldy divorces that many Christians, apart from those mentioned above, engage in, and ask the question again...

Are such Christians, who leave a marriage when the refiner's fire enters in; when things get tough; when the honeymoon is over; are they 'ok' to do so and still be in the book of Life? Consider this - what is the most important decision in life?

I'd say salvation and I'm guessing most of you would agree with me.

What is the 2nd most important decision in life? Choosing a vocation? Joining a church?

I'd argue choosing to get married; accepting and making a convenanted relationship committment between God, another person, and yourself. Remember, it's a covenant!

So consider that when you answer the question - would a genuine Christian leave a covenant like that when times get rough? We already know a professing Christian will - it happens all the time. Is such a person guaranteed a place in God's kingdom after choosing to abandon a Godly spouse and children for reasons of caprice, or just, as brought forward in one post, for making a mistake?

No. 8     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Caroline723   Gender: F   Age: 59   on  Oct 14, 2016 at 10:30 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:
So consider that when you answer the question - would a genuine Christian leave a covenant like that when times get rough? We already know a professing Christian will - it happens all the time. Is such a person guaranteed a place in God's kingdom after choosing to abandon a Godly spouse and children for reasons of caprice, or just, as brought forward in one post, for making a mistake?


I think this is nearly an impossible question to answer! Not that there's anything wrong with it - it's a great question - but because it's so multifaceted.

Can a genuine Christian do such an awful thing? I think so. I don't think we ever lose our free will or the ability to turn our backs on God. But, if they commit such a sin and break covenant with God, are they still a Christian? I think that could depend on whether or not they remarry.

According to scripture, anyone who leaves a marriage for any reason other than adultery or death is never free to marry again and if they do, that "marriage" is considered adultery in God's eyes.

Considering that fact, can an unrepentant adulterer enter into heaven? Can they still be the Bride of Christ? Or are they damned until they leave the adulterous marriage?

I know a couple who met when he was married and had an adulterous affair that ended his marriage. After that divorce they continued the affair and eventually got married. Soon after, he was ordained and they started their own church. They are now leading a church and very active in their community doing charity work and such. They had a child of their own and his children from the previous marriage are also with them on weekends and such.

You know, I have never been able to see that ministry as legit. But what about forgiveness and grace? Since they asked for forgiveness and are now living in a faithful marriage and active in the ministry, is it all "under the blood"? Is all forgiven? How must his first (real) wife feel when she has to send her children to spend time with their dad and the woman with which he cheated on her during their marriage?

On the one hand, I do believe in grace and scripture says that whatever sin we do, if we ask forgiveness He is faithful and just to forgive our sins. But what about second marriages when the first marriage covenant was broken outside of the biblical allowances?

I think, if we're going to follow what scripture says, that second marriage is adultery and until the person repents they are still in adultery.

How does one repent from a marriage they entered into sinfully? Is that even really divorce?






No. 9     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 15, 2016 at 12:31 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Are such Christians, who leave a marriage when the refiner's fire enters in; when things get tough; when the honeymoon is over; are they 'ok' to do so and still be in the book of Life? Consider this - what is the most important decision in life?

I'd argue choosing to get married; accepting and making a convenanted relationship committment between God, another person, and yourself. Remember, it's a covenant!

So consider that when you answer the question - would a genuine Christian leave a covenant like that when times get rough? We already know a professing Christian will - it happens all the time. Is such a person guaranteed a place in God's kingdom after choosing to abandon a Godly spouse and children for reasons of caprice, or just, as brought forward in one post, for making a mistake?



The Bible says that when one leaves a marriage for any reason other than adultery or death, they are never free to marry again and if they do then that marriage is adultery in God's eyes.

That's the Biblical truth and that's God's view on it.

Christian marriage is a covenant between the couple and with God. As a spouse, the marriage hierarchy is:

1 - God
2 - The marriage covenant between me and God
3 - the love I commanded to have for my spouse

So even if the "love" fades for the spouse, there is a higher order to follow which is God and the marriage covenant I have between me and God regarding my marriage. In my case, my love never faded for my wife, I loved her as Christ loved His Church.

Remember, God doesn't ASK us to love our spouse, He COMMANDS it. That's the difference between the secular Satanic world which says one can fall out of love and that's OK to do. God says no such thing.

1 Corinthians 13 - It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.

So for a true Christian to break the marriage and divorce, they have to abandon God, the marriage covenant and finally the love for the spouse. So THREE complete and open violations.

This is not an "accidental" thing to do. It requires hardening of ones heart and then doing so in three places. Hardening one's heart to God, the marriage covenant and then the spouse.


No. 10     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  Oct 15, 2016 at 1:09 AM     
This question arises when people are still groping in the shadow of the OT with their self-claims of sainthood, holy marriage, etc. that are against the preaching and practice of Jesus Christ!
No. 11     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 15, 2016 at 1:39 PM     
Caroline723 wrote:

That's a tough question, and I'm not going to give a long answer or scripture. I just want to say briefly that I don't believe in OSAS and I think that some people can be Christians, then wander from the faith and that's what happens in at least some (if not most) cases when a Christian abandons their spouse unjustly or unscripturally.


Well, the OSAS people would argue that if a professing believer acted thusly (ungodly), then he wasn't a true believer in the first place.

Not that this thread is about OSAS, but it may very well have its place in the discussion.
No. 12     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Caroline723   Gender: F   Age: 59   on  Oct 15, 2016 at 4:16 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Well, the OSAS people would argue that if a professing believer acted thusly (ungodly), then he wasn't a true believer in the first place.


Hmmm... not sure if I'd call that circular reasoning or a slippery slope.

No. 13     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 15, 2016 at 4:35 PM     
One can debate eternal security but regarding this thread, Christians can and do sin and commit sins like leaving a marriage without just cause and are true Christians.

No. 14     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  Oct 16, 2016 at 8:52 AM     
Peter4 wrote:

One can debate eternal security but regarding this thread, Christians can and do sin and commit sins like leaving a marriage without just cause and are true Christians.


You mean Paulians?
No. 15     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 16, 2016 at 8:41 PM     
Caroline723 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

Well, the OSAS people would argue that if a professing believer acted thusly (ungodly), then he wasn't a true believer in the first place.


Hmmm... not sure if I'd call that circular reasoning or a slippery slope.



Maybe from your own pov, but that was my own pov also and I still could understand the reasoning from the other side.
No. 16     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 16, 2016 at 8:49 PM     
Peter4 wrote:

The Bible says that when one leaves a marriage for any reason other than adultery or death, they are never free to marry again and if they do then that marriage is adultery in God's eyes.

That's the Biblical truth and that's God's view on it.



Sorry, Peter, but that's an interpretation of it, and Christians have differences of opinion on what God's view actually is. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, and I think we discussed this before, briefly, but when it comes to issues like this, it is wise to know that Christians do disagree on it, rather than insist that one's own opinion is 'gospel'.

At any rate, I'm not here to debate it, any more than the OSAS controversy, at least on this thread.
No. 17     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 102   on  Oct 16, 2016 at 9:52 PM     
Scriptures say "except for fornication," and this was later translated in some Bibles as adultery.

It is for each to discern, however I do agree with Peter's interpretation, except I use fornication v. adultery. We note in scripture that Joseph was going to put Mary away (they were endowed to be married), except the Holy Spirit let Joseph know Mary did not fornicate and they then were married.

If an 'unbelieving' spouse leaves then one is free to remarry, yet that is another topic, right? I'd have to agree with Peter ... that just because one sins...it does not make them an unbeliever.

Are we ever free to remarry? At one point scriptures state except for death. In a perfect world -- we would see this, but we live in an imperfect world that is getting every bit more imperfect (as we ourselves grow and see this more and more).

WE are however bond by grace and so let it be written in each man's heart that love for God is beyond that of even our flesh.



On the OP: If one premeditates and plans adultery and continues in this behavior without repentance -- I do have difficulties seeing this person as a fellow Christian, since we know that adultery is a sin that leads to death. Yet, there again...if one sins and even if not repentant, it does not make them atheist by any means (provided they do not profess the same or otherwise some foreign religion).
No. 18     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 49   on  Oct 17, 2016 at 9:12 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

I've thought about this several times over the almost 20 yrs. ago desertion of my own ex-wife. More recently Peter's similar situation plus some discussion of 'professing' Christians has increased my interest. Finally, my daily studies of Barnhouse's Romans, which has amazingly addressed current events here on MC almost as if Barnhouse was still alive and a MC member (he passed in 1960), has given m some new input and thoughts which have caused me to to take an even deeper look at this issue than ever before, and let me assure you I have studied it extensively in the past.

So what do YOU think or believe?

Now people often ask for scriptural verses backing others positions, and certainly that is great but please give your biblical reasoning behind the use of those verses also.



Hi Stormchaser

The issue would be how can we make that judgement call for another.

I would not be able to truly say, but we can know (them) by their fruits.

There is the elephant in the room, but what is the rest of the story? Did the spouse leave to be with another, or what? Did he, or she just wake up one morning and say I want a divorce! I don't believe there is a cookie cutter answer.

Physical abuse was not given as a reason for divorce. I would not stay with someone beating on me.

If anyone is in an abusive marriage get help. I pray that it can be fixed.

Thanks




No. 19     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 18, 2016 at 9:41 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:



I don't how much this helps.

I accepted the Lord as my Savior when I was in Corvallis, OR, for higher studies alone with my wife and young son in India. We are from Hindu Devanga Brahmin community. When I went back my family members did not like my stand. Nevertheless, my wife continued with me and we had another son. I continued to witness for Christ, but did not force her for acceptance. I did not attend any church. Only after about ten years of my witnessing, she and our two sons finally accepted Jesus, and we started attending church and got baptized also.

A marriage according to Christian principle has no room for anyone deserting his/her spouse. Even if one is a non-believer, deserting is improper and is against Christian values.




This is the best thing I have ever seen you post, Deva.
No. 20     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 18, 2016 at 4:46 PM     
My spouse abandoned me. I would have never deserted her, never. She was not the easiest to deal with at times, but I never deserted her and would never abandon her.

I took a marriage vow and I made a promise before her and before God that we shall be together until death do us part. I never did and would never break that vow. She chose to break it.

As Christians we are held to our words. If our words are meaningless and we go back on our promises and our words, what do we have left? How can we be a witness and testimony to the world if we are hypocrites?






No. 21     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 49   on  Oct 18, 2016 at 5:28 PM     
1Co 7:10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1Co 7:11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

1Co 7:12
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

1Co 7:13
And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

1Co 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1Co 7:15
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.



How would this be interpreted?

Verse 10 and 11 is when both are believers.

It would at least seem from that both were true Christians.



Thanks

No. 22     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  Oct 18, 2016 at 8:14 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:



I don't how much this helps.

I accepted the Lord as my Savior when I was in Corvallis, OR, for higher studies alone with my wife and young son in India. We are from Hindu Devanga Brahmin community. When I went back my family members did not like my stand. Nevertheless, my wife continued with me and we had another son. I continued to witness for Christ, but did not force her for acceptance. I did not attend any church. Only after about ten years of my witnessing, she and our two sons finally accepted Jesus, and we started attending church and got baptized also.

A marriage according to Christian principle has no room for anyone deserting his/her spouse. Even if one is a non-believer, deserting is improper and is against Christian values.




This is the best thing I have ever seen you post, Deva.
:hug:
No. 23     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 12:38 AM     
another84 wrote:

1Co 7:10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1Co 7:11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


How would this be interpreted?

Verse 10 and 11 is when both are believers.

It would at least seem from that both were true Christians.



That's why I believe the Bible says that when a Christian spouse leaves a marriage for any reason other than adultery or death, they are never free to marry again and if they do then that marriage is adultery in God's eyes.

No. 24     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 10:40 AM     
another84 wrote:




How would this be interpreted?

Verse 10 and 11 is when both are believers.

It would at least seem from that both were true Christians.



Thanks



Excellent response, and exactly what I was looking for, as I didn't create this thread as a teacher, but rather to learn for myself, and your post gave me pause for some additional thought and input from the Lord.

And you are quite right - vs. 10 and 11 are directed towards believers, those who Name the Name. That is definitely the implied contextual meaning, so for the moment it appears that you have answered the question of the OP.

I took a couple of days to mull this over, and I do have some additional insight about this that I believe the Lord gave to me, but I will save it for the moment.

Great post, another.
No. 25     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 11:07 AM     
another84 wrote:

1Co 7:10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1Co 7:11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

1Co 7:12
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

1Co 7:13
And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

1Co 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1Co 7:15
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.



How would this be interpreted?

Verse 10 and 11 is when both are believers.

It would at least seem from that both were true Christians.



Thanks



That is why Paul is loved by many with his compromise formulas that are against the call of Jesus that too with pick and choose methods.

Jesus' call was for discipleship, not for just belief.So it is Paulineship not true Christianity that is Christ centered.
No. 26     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 102   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 2:07 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

another84 wrote:




How would this be interpreted?

Verse 10 and 11 is when both are believers.

It would at least seem from that both were true Christians.



Thanks



Excellent response, and exactly what I was looking for, as I didn't create this thread as a teacher, but rather to learn for myself, and your post gave me pause for some additional thought and input from the Lord.

And you are quite right - vs. 10 and 11 are directed towards believers, those who Name the Name. That is definitely the implied contextual meaning, so for the moment it appears that you have answered the question of the OP.

Great post, another.


In agreement here. :2thumbs:

No. 27     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 5:25 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:



Great post, another.


In agreement here. :2thumbs:



Oh, it's far from over...not until the fat lady sings :wavey:

(such a silly saying)
No. 28     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 49   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 7:21 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:



Great post, another.


In agreement here. :2thumbs:



Oh, it's far from over...not until the fat lady sings :wavey:

(such a silly saying)


Fascinating

No. 29     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 102   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 7:45 PM     
another84 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:



Great post, another.


In agreement here. :2thumbs:



Oh, it's far from over...not until the fat lady sings :wavey:

(such a silly saying)


Fascinating



Hey are you calling me Fat..J/K! I can't wait!
No. 30     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christ   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 19, 2016 at 11:00 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

another84 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:



Great post, another.


In agreement here. :2thumbs:



Oh, it's far from over...not until the fat lady sings :wavey:

(such a silly saying)


Fascinating



Hey are you calling me Fat..J/K! I can't wait!


No. 31     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Ch   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 102   on  Oct 20, 2016 at 12:27 AM     
So you are calling me skinny?...lol Those strawberries look yummy...just like Shari's Berries that I got sent to me once in total suprise!




No. 32     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a tru   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 20, 2016 at 1:57 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

So you are calling me skinny?...lol Those strawberries look yummy...just like Shari's Berries that I got sent to me once in total suprise!






Certainly, if the berries are chasing YOU!
No. 33     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 20, 2016 at 3:10 AM     
I believe abandonment/deserting a spouse without just cause, is a very selfish and ungodly thing to do to a loving Christian spouse.

Being the recipient of such selfish & ungodly behavior is not easy to deal with. There is a lot of hurt, pain and depression that comes with that.

No. 34     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Caroline723   Gender: F   Age: 59   on  Oct 20, 2016 at 7:04 AM     
Peter4 wrote:

I believe abandonment/deserting a spouse without just cause, is a very selfish and ungodly thing to do to a loving Christian spouse.

Being the recipient of such selfish & ungodly behavior is not easy to deal with. There is a lot of hurt, pain and depression that comes with that.



I agree, but I laid it all down at the foot of the cross and now I'm over it.

God is too good and life is too short to waste crying over someone else's craziness. I just don't have time for that.
No. 35     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  Oct 20, 2016 at 11:08 AM     
Modern materialistic world has taken over marriage. It is simply use and throw!
No. 36     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 21, 2016 at 8:53 PM     
So to answer the OP's question, I think it can be summarized as such:

True Christians can and do leave marriages without Biblical justification. Their act is NOT Christian or godly but they do it anyways.

No. 37     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 22, 2016 at 2:00 PM     
I'm going to be shortly bring up an example, the example that has prompted the OP, but as a prequel to that and while it is fresh on everyone's mind, I'd like you to consider the example just given to us in the SLANDER thread on the General Forum.

There we have an example that appears to be apostasy, which means 'a pulling away from God's Word,' the individual described as having some knowledge of what it means to be a believer, claims to be one, and even a student of God's Word yet one who doesn't choose to be obedient to it. Rather, like many (including Satan) He uses it to accuse God's elect.

He has a long history of this, appearing off and on with only words of judgment and accusations for the elect, and justifies his actions as 'Godly.'

Yes, that example is not dealing with marriage directly, but it does have relevance as the issue of apostasy and in that regard is what I will be shortly bringing up for consideration (and thanks to Jonathan Cahn for sharpening my mind on this).

Please refrain from commenting upon that person this post addresses here (for the moment), for I'd rather just have you thinking about his claims and actions before I get to the other example mentioned. If you wish to criticize my description of him, please do it on that other thread, rather than taking this thread into a sidebar conversation.
No. 38     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 24, 2016 at 10:49 AM     
Let's now relate the circumstances that led me to create this this thread. This will be a two or three-parter, and as I am leaving for the Dominican Republic late, late tonight, and will only have my computer tablet for the next several days, I will only post part one now and the rest will have to wait until I return.

So Part One will deal with my own situation - that of my failed marriage. I will NOT be covering the sins of the actual marriage so much (of which I acknowledge I was guilty as well as my spouse was), so if you have comments that deal with that, or sympathy or pity, please post them elsewhere (there is a new thread on General that may be appropriate for that).

This event happened nearly 20 yrs. ago and though there is 'baggage', it is safely buried in the closet and I have no wish to revisit most of it, and to underscore that, I will be addressing my ex-wife merely in the 3rd person.

So this description will be only of the events at the very end of the marriage...those actions that 'killed' the marriage, and in that regard and in light of the thread title, it will focus on the person who did the 'killing' and how those actions may have application to the OP.


So let's list the relevant points:

1. This person initiated the initial separation, and then the consequent divorce

2. She violated, as best as I can determine, at least 3 of the 10 commandments, and several other Scriptural commands and principles.

3. As far as the just mentioned violations (sins), this individual committed these acts not just once, but instead committed them in a repeated pattern of disobedience to scripture.

4. There was never, not once, any sort of repentance for these egregious acts of moral failure.


Now get this, and I hope you are listening well - this woman was, and still is, a professing Christian. She went to church weekly. She attended Bible studies. She had a working knowledge of scripture. She had 'asked Christ' into her life.

Yet when 'the rubber met the road,' when the time of testing came, as it does in every marriage, she folded; she failed to meet the test; she punted.

When the opportunity came to rekindle the marriage, she chose judgment instead. When the opportunity came for the Godly pastor who married us to intercede, she rejected that and attempted to manipulate him.

When another third party was available for interceding, that of her own chosen counselor, instead of using that opportunity for communication, she instead manipulated that effort into an attempt to force appeasement, against her own counselor's advice.

When she finally found 'help' that she could manipulate successfully, the leadership of her own church (she had earlier decided to attend a different church than that of her husband - another bad sign), because of their own low-level of how to rightly divide scripture, she was able to influence them to apply pressure unrighteously. Even then, after I had exposed her unrighteous acts to them and they admonished her to repent, she did not.

There is more...many unrighteous acts committed against her husband and the marriage, but since she was 'Christian,' there was always an explanation of how she was right to do these egregious acts; always a justification, but never a heart for repentance; for reconciliation; for the Holy Spirit to have room to act. She had decided that she was RIGHT and that was all there was to it.

That's basically it for this 'Part One.' I will next, after I return from the DR, go into the scriptures that have recently changed my whole mindset about how professing Christians are deluded and may not make the 'cut.'

Feel free to comment at this point. I will probably withhold most of my responses until I fully cover the consequent points that are yet to be posted.
No. 39     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 102   on  Oct 24, 2016 at 12:30 PM     
Have a good time in the DR!

Humans always have a tendency to believe they are correct on things. Unfortunately, this doesn't leave room for much growth. I do believe if we all had more humble minds...the world would not only be a kinder place, but likely society even more advanced overall.

Scriptures tell us that the way is narrow and few will enter, so I agree up to this point, however we find in Matt 7:21 that it is those professing themselves as believers and workers of the Faith that are also rejected (so they are failing despite believing which we see every day of the week). There are sins that lead to death and sins that do not and so many skip over that in their assessment that we all are sinners. Who should say this, but the Lord, Himself if truly practicing the faith with Honor for the Lord's "sole" ability to read the heart and in all humility and humbleness?

(so sorry if I am jumping ahead here)

So if you are suggesting that Christ makes the ultimate decision on one's heart as a believer or not -- I do agree. Consider doubt and the lack of faith stated to the apostles as 'truly' not of God's design and failing to meet the mark as prescribed by the Lord to us.

Safe travels wished.


No. 40     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 24, 2016 at 5:24 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

So let's list the relevant points:

1. This person initiated the initial separation, and then the consequent divorce

2. She violated, as best as I can determine, at least 3 of the 10 commandments, and several other Scriptural commands and principles.

3. As far as the just mentioned violations (sins), this individual committed these acts not just once, but instead committed them in a repeated pattern of disobedience to scripture.

4. There was never, not once, any sort of repentance for these egregious acts of moral failure.

Now get this, and I hope you are listening well - this woman was, and still is, a professing Christian. She went to church weekly. She attended Bible studies. She had a working knowledge of scripture. She had 'asked Christ' into her life.

Yet when 'the rubber met the road,' when the time of testing came, as it does in every marriage, she folded; she failed to meet the test; she punted.



The above is identical to my spouse and what she did!


Unlike your former spouse, my spouse wouldn't even talk to a pastoral counselor over the phone in an attempt to save the marriage. She did NOT care, not even a tiny bit, to try and restore and heal the marriage.

Satan might try and disguise his ways but sin is sin and what your spouse did and what my spouse did, is an egregious sin. No sugar coating it.

No. 41     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 25, 2016 at 8:11 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

So this description will be only of the events at the very end of the marriage...those actions that 'killed' the marriage, and in that regard and in light of the thread title, it will focus on the person who did the 'killing' and how those actions may have application to the OP.



Yes, a Christian marriage just doesn't "die" but it requires someone to kill it purposely and then that person to refuse God's Hand in bringing it back to life.

A spouse that CHOOSES to stop loving their spouse and then CHOOSES to not have God intercede to heal and restore it and then CHOOSES to divorce, that spouse is guilty of many egregious sins.



No. 42     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 28, 2016 at 6:21 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

So this description will be only of the events at the very end of the marriage...those actions that 'killed' the marriage, and in that regard and in light of the thread title, it will focus on the person who did the 'killing' and how those actions may have application to the OP.


1. This person initiated the initial separation, and then the consequent divorce

Yet when 'the rubber met the road,' when the time of testing came, as it does in every marriage, she folded; she failed to meet the test; she punted.

When the opportunity came to rekindle the marriage, she chose judgment instead.



Would you agree that the spouse who does the above without attempting proper counseling and Godly healing/restoration is guilty of the sin of violating the marriage covenant and vow?

No. 43     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Oct 28, 2016 at 7:05 PM     
Peter4 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

So this description will be only of the events at the very end of the marriage...those actions that 'killed' the marriage, and in that regard and in light of the thread title, it will focus on the person who did the 'killing' and how those actions may have application to the OP.


1. This person initiated the initial separation, and then the consequent divorce

Yet when 'the rubber met the road,' when the time of testing came, as it does in every marriage, she folded; she failed to meet the test; she punted.

When the opportunity came to rekindle the marriage, she chose judgment instead.



Would you agree that the spouse who does the above without attempting proper counseling and Godly healing/restoration is guilty of the sin of violating the marriage covenant and vow?



Not exactly, for it is not merely a marital violation I was describing, but something much more serious.

Not that marital violations are not serious in and of themselves, for they are, yet marriages that have suffered such can be healed if the couple truly desires it to be so.

However, when you come to a situation (like mine, maybe yours) where one spouse has actually left the marriage covenant (a biblical divorce), you have a 'breaking' of the covenant, rather than just a 'violation,' and I'd say you'd better be sure of your biblical grounds before you take such a serious step, for God hates divorce and if you don't hate it just as much...well...that takes us back to the question in the OP, doesn't it.

No. 44     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Oct 29, 2016 at 12:15 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Not exactly, for it is not merely a marital violation I was describing, but something much more serious.

Not that marital violations are not serious in and of themselves, for they are, yet marriages that have suffered such can be healed if the couple truly desires it to be so.

However, when you come to a situation (like mine, maybe yours) where one spouse has actually left the marriage covenant (a biblical divorce), you have a 'breaking' of the covenant, rather than just a 'violation,' and I'd say you'd better be sure of your biblical grounds before you take such a serious step, for God hates divorce and if you don't hate it just as much...well...that takes us back to the question in the OP, doesn't it.



Of course I hate divorce and neither me or my spouse committed adultery in our marriage. My spouse left for no valid reason. Nothing was explained to me and when asked why she decided to leave and divorce, she basically stated that she wanted a fresh start in life.

I sought Godly healing and restoration when she left. She refused. I never wanted to divorce. She did.

So can you expound on the violation vs breaking?
No. 45     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Nov 1, 2016 at 10:45 AM     
Peter4 wrote:



So can you expound on the violation vs breaking?


That's going to take some time, but I'll give it a try...

Speaking to all...

INTRODUCTION

Some Christians have come up with the incorrect understanding of sin by defining it as 'sin is sin,' as if all sin is the same in God's eyes. Several years ago I undertook a study of SIN, as I somewhat agreed with the sin is sin understanding, but as I studied, I not only grew in my understanding of the Word, but also my in depth study of the word 'sin,' I found out differently.

So I now understand that there are different levels of sin. ALL sin is wrong in God's eyes, so let's not go there, but we know that God looks at some specific sins as abominable, as an example.

Another example may be the current presidential candidates. There have been several attempts by the Democrats to portray Donald Trump as much worse than their own candidate in the morality department. But as a recent TRUNEWS report described, Trump is CARNAL; Hillary is, however, totally WICKED. Being carnal is living by the flesh, something we ALL do at times, whether in the Lord or not. Wickedness, however, often portrayed in the Book of Proverbs, describes a base state of deep swamp sinfulness - someone who has chosen to have a reprobate mind, far, far away from that which God calls us to be.

(more to come...)
No. 46     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Nov 4, 2016 at 1:22 PM     
CAsandie wrote:



Scriptures tell us that the way is narrow and few will enter, so I agree up to this point, however we find in Matt 7:21 that it is those professing themselves as believers and workers of the Faith that are also rejected (so they are failing despite believing which we see every day of the week).


Which brings to mind the question asked in the OP, though in more general terms, quoting yourself, "so they are failing despite believing". Is belief itself the central criterion in achieving eternal life, or is something more required and if so, what?



There are sins that lead to death and sins that do not and so many skip over that in their assessment that we all are sinners. Who should say this, but the Lord, Himself if truly practicing the faith with Honor for the Lord's "sole" ability to read the heart and in all humility and humbleness?



So is it the actual sins committed that lead to death, or the heart condition?
No. 47     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  another84   Gender: M   Age: 49   on  Nov 6, 2016 at 12:50 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:



Scriptures tell us that the way is narrow and few will enter, so I agree up to this point, however we find in Matt 7:21 that it is those professing themselves as believers and workers of the Faith that are also rejected (so they are failing despite believing which we see every day of the week).


Which brings to mind the question asked in the OP, though in more general terms, quoting yourself, so they are failing despite believing. Is belief itself the central criterion in achieving eternal life, or is something more required and if so, what?



There are sins that lead to death and sins that do not and so many skip over that in their assessment that we all are sinners. Who should say this, but the Lord, Himself if truly practicing the faith with Honor for the Lord's sole ability to read the heart and in all humility and humbleness?



So is it the actual sins committed that lead to death, or the heart condition?



Act 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


Act 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.


Is someone a thief because he steals, or does he steal because he is a theif?

We all are sinners. Only God can forgive sin and make me clean. We are told this begins with repentance. Sevice to God, not to sin. We cannot serve both God and sin.

Simon's sin was the thought of thine heart. He was told what he could do that God may forgive him.

I would believe the heart condition is do to unforgiven sin. If we don't fully let it go we are still holding on to what keeps us from God.

Thanks
No. 48     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Caroline723   Gender: F   Age: 59   on  Nov 6, 2016 at 9:58 AM     
There are times when a spouse who seems to be a "Christian" is not and will actually become so destructive and evil that the Lord Himself will remove them from the "marriage" for the good of the true Believer. This is what happened to me and it had to be his choice because my commitment was genuine and for that reason I never would have left him. Since God removed him from my life, I have been blessed beyond measure, but his life is under a curse so that nothing he puts his hand to succeeds. He lost everything and my prayer is for God to have mercy on him.

No. 49     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Nov 8, 2016 at 12:12 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

I'm going to be shortly bring up an example, the example that has prompted the OP, but as a prequel to that and while it is fresh on everyone's mind, I'd like you to consider the example just given to us in the SLANDER thread on the General Forum.

There we have an example that appears to be apostasy, which means 'a pulling away from God's Word,' the individual described as having some knowledge of what it means to be a believer, claims to be one, and even a student of God's Word yet one who doesn't choose to be obedient to it. Rather, like many (including Satan) He uses it to accuse God's elect.

He has a long history of this, appearing off and on with only words of judgment and accusations for the elect, and justifies his actions as 'Godly.'

Yes, that example is not dealing with marriage directly, but it does have relevance as the issue of apostasy and in that regard is what I will be shortly bringing up for consideration (and thanks to Jonathan Cahn for sharpening my mind on this).



Since the individual mentioned in the quote above has decided to (once again) reappear with more accusations against Christians, let's notice that he has now publicly threatened said Christians with lawsuits.

Go and read 1 Cor. 6. The obvious implication is that if one takes a believer before secular courts rather than believer judgment, then there is an obvious moral failure. Yes, Christians can have moral failures also, but when you have a situation where the moral failures continue to add up without fail, then you have to take a serious look at the possibility that the person who has such a record is a person who is not living in Christ, in spite of verbal statements otherwise.
No. 50     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Nov 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM     
You call Me Eternal, then do not seek Me.
You call Me Fair, then do not love Me.
You call Me Gracious, then do not trust Me.
You call Me Just, then do not fear Me.
You call Me Life, then do not choose Me.
You call Me Light, then do not see Me.
You call Me Lord, then do not respect Me.
You call Me Master, then do not obey Me.
You call Me Merciful, then do not thank Me.
You call Me Mighty, then do not honor Me.
You call Me Noble, then do not serve Me.
You call Me Rich, then do not ask Me.
You call Me Savior, then do not praise Me.
You call Me Shepherd, then do not follow Me.
You call Me the Way, then do not walk with Me.
You call Me Wise, then do not heed Me.
You call Me Son of God, then do not worship Me.
When I sentence you, then do not blame Me.
No. 51     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Nov 25, 2016 at 10:59 PM     
Stormchaser,

Too bad I didn't do a "covenant" marriage which they have in this state. If I had done that originally when we married, my ex could not have sought a divorce without just Biblical causes. The covenant marriage only allows a divorce if there is adultery or abuse. If those are not present, then mandatory counseling must be done if the spouse still wants a divorce. A 1-year cooling off period is enforced and mandatory counseling. If after both of those things are done and the spouse still wants a divorce. They must go before a judge to get it approved, which it most likely gets approved after the 1-year and counseling is completed.

The covenant marriage makes it more difficult to divorce as it enforces the covenant as much as it can through the states legal methods.
No. 52     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Nov 26, 2016 at 3:01 PM     
Peter4 wrote:

Stormchaser,

Too bad I didn't do a "covenant" marriage which they have in this state. If I had done that originally when we married, my ex could not have sought a divorce without just Biblical causes. The covenant marriage only allows a divorce if there is adultery or abuse. If those are not present, then mandatory counseling must be done if the spouse still wants a divorce. A 1-year cooling off period is enforced and mandatory counseling. If after both of those things are done and the spouse still wants a divorce. They must go before a judge to get it approved, which it most likely gets approved after the 1-year and counseling is completed.

The covenant marriage makes it more difficult to divorce as it enforces the covenant as much as it can through the states legal methods.


I did not know that any states still did "covenant marriages," as the ungodly 'no fault' agenda has spread widely, but nevertheless, the true covenant is the Biblical marriage. Not to knock states or political units backing up the Godly marriage with laws to insure or back up the Biblical understanding of marriages, as the closer man's laws reflect God's laws, the more blessed those countries will be.

Our American society, of course, has traveled far from God's Word and principles, and we consequently are facing his judgment...not only facing but actually experiencing it in the breakdown of our society. The wicked, of course, seek this and the destruction of the Judeo-Christian building blocks that made our country strong and Godly, but the fault still primarily rests with we Christians, who have let it come to pass.

And now we see the result of our own inactivity in the destruction of our own Christian marriages, for as we allowed the world to shape the culture, it also shaped OUR culture, and now we Christians show little difference from the world, engaging in moral depredations at will, with easy divorce being very much a part of that.

We still talk the talk, as well as name the Name (as covered in the OP), but as far as walking the walk, we veer from the path whenever we feel like it.
No. 53     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 42   on  Nov 26, 2016 at 11:21 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

I did not know that any states still did "covenant marriages," as the ungodly 'no fault' agenda has spread widely, but nevertheless, the true covenant is the Biblical marriage. Not to knock states or political units backing up the Godly marriage with laws to insure or back up the Biblical understanding of marriages, as the closer man's laws reflect God's laws, the more blessed those countries will be.

And now we see the result of our own inactivity in the destruction of our own Christian marriages, for as we allowed the world to shape the culture, it also shaped OUR culture, and now we Christians show little difference from the world, engaging in moral depredations at will, with easy divorce being very much a part of that.

We still talk the talk, as well as name the Name (as covered in the OP), but as far as walking the walk, we veer from the path whenever we feel like it.


It's rare but some states do have a "covenant marriage" in the books but it has to be agreed upon before the marriage.

Usually a pastor interjects to prevent a divorce, especially when there are no Biblical grounds for one. I attempted to have a pastor discuss this with my then wife and her response was, "not interested" and she refused any and all pastoral counseling. Not interested? Is this how a godly woman responds to her marital vow before God?

As you said, it is the wickedness and depravity, even those who are Christian. Very callous, very cold, very unloving and how ungodly of my ex to do what she did and to divorce me like she did. Yet, she attends a Christian church and her parents are church board members. Welcome to modern day Christianity. "Do as I say, not as I do."

At least when people ask me I can tell them I wanted to fight to keep the marriage but she didn't. I didn't want to divorce, she did, I wanted restoration and Godly healing, she didn't.

It's not about "blame" but about truth and reality.

She destroyed & ended the marriage, it was her choice to do so. She abandoned God's healing, her husband, the marital covenant, her vow, it was her decision. Not mine.

She would say at times during our marriage that she was a mean and bad person and a bad wife, I would disagree and tell her otherwise but now looking back and what she did. It's sad but she is a mean and bad person and a bad wife. She fulfilled her own "prophecy". It makes me want to cry but she turned out to be a bad person and a bad wife. Not easy to say that about a woman/wife I love.
No. 54     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 19, 2017 at 12:48 PM     
I want to get back to this thread, and the idea that a person can be a true Christian and still act in violation of God's Word.

Though not my main point on some new information that God has taught me, while reviewing previous posts I see that I did not properly respond to 'another84's' post here:



another84 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

I've thought about this several times over the almost 20 yrs. ago desertion of my own ex-wife. More recently Peter's similar situation plus some discussion of 'professing' Christians has increased my interest. Finally, my daily studies of Barnhouse's Romans, which has amazingly addressed current events here on MC almost as if Barnhouse was still alive and a MC member (he passed in 1960), has given m some new input and thoughts which have caused me to to take an even deeper look at this issue than ever before, and let me assure you I have studied it extensively in the past.

So what do YOU think or believe?

Now people often ask for scriptural verses backing others positions, and certainly that is great but please give your biblical reasoning behind the use of those verses also.



Hi Stormchaser

The issue would be how can we make that judgement call for another.



Not so, for that is not the question asked in the OP. Rather, it is a follow-up sort of question...valuable but slightly out-of-context to the OP. The OP asks whether the situation posited is possible, NOT how we respond.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post is more of a sliding back into the thread, so not so much new information and thoughts I've recently had. Future posts will bring you all up to date as to what I've been finding out about the subject.
No. 55     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 19, 2017 at 5:04 PM     

Storm -- Last Wednesday my new Pastor and I were discussing 'sin' separating us from God and His Sacrifice and Love covering a multitude of sins (and bringing us back to God).

King David is a clear example that one might study when seeking a determination as to whom the Lord might call His own.

Unfortunately often fruit inspectors (as we are) do not always fully rely upon the Lord in our judgements. People might judge another with hurt, jealousy and in ways that are not the Lord's.

Thank God we have a Righteous Judge, we can trust in the question you pose, eh? . After further consideration of this question...I am certain working out one's own salvation is enough. Marriage isn't in the Heavens. Love is. Continuing to walk in love requires a lot of, lot of forgiveness. Determining each persons' reason for a sin committed is quite tedious, but the Lord knows all and is Just. He is also Just to remove our inner hurt and set us free of the bondage of condemnation against others and ourselves (accusing and condemnation is the accusers/satan's workshop)! <--there is no freedom there/we all stand guilty!!! (see my point)?

Shalom!

No. 56     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  greendiamond   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  May 19, 2017 at 7:12 PM     
.....have witnessed great cruelties endorsed among the OMAM crowd......

.....'told my daughter.......
"you find yourself in an abusive/unhealthy relationship......
.....you get out......especially if there's children involved.......
divorce is not the unpardonable sin"........

.......can o' worms dot com........:coffeenpc:
No. 57     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  jimmylynn   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  May 21, 2017 at 12:08 AM     
it is not too late and i am not too tired and am not too busy. this is from 10-16. with 1900 nose pokes. only a handful of you writing.

so I offer opinions. I think Jesus is God and Messiah and savior. and on my spiritual birthday I made Jesus my lord and master.

Jesus gave us 2 commandments. I believe that these are the last and greatest commandments of Jesus. summaries of all other commandments.
maybe all words of the bible are commandments and not suggestions.

apparently SDA think that Jesus gave them 10 commandments.

so we are commanded to love our fellow man. and not sin against them. and assist all others and evangelize to all others.

and not be worldly. some of you need that explained to you.

and give to [pay] the poor and orphans and widows in need. I like to throw this out for those of you who think they are not commanded to tithe. I know it has been beaten on. a whole thread.

I think Jesus does not want you to sin. I think sinning is not OK with Jesus.

Yes I think we are all born a sinner headed for hell. and my bible tells me if we die a sinner we are going to hell.

though apparently calvinists think they are not born a sinner headed for hell.

so because we are all born a sinner my bible tells me Jesus came to take away my sins. that is if I give up my sin nature to Jesus I become a new creature. in Christ. righteous and pure and holy and sanctified and without sin nature. Jesus did not come to hide sin or cover sin or leave us in our sin and have us pretend we are christians who have sins.

I surrendered my life over to Jesus on November 11, 1977. when I was 32.

yes I am once saved always saved. I suppose time will tell. but why would I leave Jesus and shame Jesus by sinning. I belong to Jesus - not to me or anyone else or anything else - and certainly not to the world any more.

I could sin. but that does not mean I am a sinner headed for hell. I would be so ahamed and heartbroken. and we have an advocate - Jesus/Holy Spirit - to restore us to righteousness. why would I sin? anger maybe? but I hope to never sin.

no. I do not think a loving christian leaves a loving christian mate.

I agree a christian should not leave a non believer if they are a loving marriage partner. to leave a good mate and children for selfishness would not be Christlike - it would be worldly.

but. why should a christian stay in a bad marriage to an evil and or abussive mate?

I would like to see the wronged christian seperate for a season for talk and counseling to save a marriage.

I know a woman who waited 8 years for her husband to return to their marriage from his love affair - and he finally asked her for divorce.

seems we tell a christian by their actions. if actions stink then why would we think they are a christian? because they say they are? because they go to church? because they got baptized? because they tithe?

yes we are to judge.

yes we are to exhort.

Jesus will condemn.

Deva, what about Paulian? Pauline? did Paul desert his wife for his ministry? did Jesus tell Paul to leave his wife and kids?

blessings. Jim

No. 58     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 21, 2017 at 9:53 AM     
Jimmylyn --

So many do not understand what it is to abstain from sin and they take the scripture that all fall short/only the Father is Good to mean what?

Unfortunately some consider it defeat and cease in trying / others do not and seek the right path (that I believe is already known in our hearts if we listen to His Comforter sent to us).

There are sins that lead to death (such as adultery) and while the Lord hates Divorce (as do I and it was one of my chief fears and reasons not to marry. I feared I would be caught in the sin of divorce if the marriage failed). Yet, divorce in itself is not a sin that leads to death...

Consider that people can remain unwed after divorce as scripture says.

I think it is hard to 'give' one's life here on this earth to the Lord for many (albeit this life so short and the task not daunting -- this is not known by those who do not surrender). Are we to judge? Yes. I believe it is only with righteously that we ought to judge though and that would not be casting stones at others to my own belief, but working out our own salvation with fear and trembling (i.e. I judge an activity a sin and so I abstain from doing those things). I can not judge the sinner's Faith or Salvation (albeit I sure have tried a lot of times in my life time [until recognizing that this too is sin] and I do question whether one is saved or not when I see a sin such as walking out of a marriage on a whim and divorcing without Scriptural justification)...

I sure pray for those hurt by the spouse leaving them. I pray that the one left would analyze the situation with a greater sense of his or her own worth to God. True love we know does not fail. It appears in some cases of divorce that love was only 'felt' and emotions are fleeing whereas love is a choice in reality followed by action (as we learn from the Lord) and it is not wavering. If we tell each other by our love ... I'd keep a distance between myself and anyone who waffles on what we know and not allow space in my own brain as to why, how and what (Christ will address that with all facing judgement). Our focus is on things more lovely (and this friends is a new reality/lesson in my life having been burned from many who 'feel' but are notably wavering and notably in a state of 'self' love).

Jimmy, I appreciate your posts having the same theological unbringing as you (Baptist), albeit on some beliefs we might differ (yet, it is not anything that divides our unity as Christians).

Thanks for your post. Blessings. :hug:

No. 59     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  jimmylynn   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  May 21, 2017 at 10:16 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Jimmylyn --

So many do not understand what it is to abstain from sin and they take the scripture that all fall short/only the Father is Good to mean what?

Unfortunately some consider it defeat and cease in trying / others do not and seek the right path (that I believe is already known in our hearts if we listen to His Comforter sent to us).

There are sins that lead to death (such as adultery) and while the Lord hates Divorce (as do I and it was one of my chief fears and reasons not to marry. I feared I would be caught in the sin of divorce if the marriage failed). Yet, divorce in itself is not a sin that leads to death...

Consider that people can remain unwed after divorce as scripture says.

I think it is hard to 'give' one's life here on this earth to the Lord for many (albeit this life so short and the task not daunting -- this is not known by those who do not surrender). Are we to judge? Yes. I believe it is only with righteously that we ought to judge though and that would not be casting stones at others to my own belief, but working out our own salvation with fear and trembling (i.e. I judge an activity a sin and so I abstain from doing those things). I can not judge the sinner's Faith or Salvation (albeit I sure have tried a lot of times in my life time [until recognizing that this too is sin] and I do question whether one is saved or not when I see a sin such as walking out of a marriage on a whim and divorcing without Scriptural justification)...

I sure pray for those hurt by the spouse leaving them. I pray that the one left would analyze the situation with a greater sense of his or her own worth to God. True love we know does not fail. It appears in some cases of divorce that love was only 'felt' and emotions are fleeing whereas love is a choice in reality followed by action (as we learn from the Lord) and it is not wavering. If we tell each other by our love ... I'd keep a distance between myself and anyone who waffles on what we know and not allow space in my own brain as to why, how and what (Christ will address that with all facing judgement). Our focus is on things more lovely (and this friends is a new reality/lesson in my life having been burned from many who 'feel' but are notably wavering and notably in a state of 'self' love).

Jimmy, I appreciate your posts having the same theological unbringing as you (Baptist), albeit on some beliefs we might differ (yet, it is not anything that divides our unity as Christians).

Thanks for your post. Blessings. :hug:




Hi Casandie. thank you for your support and kind words.

if you were married and your mate left and required a divorce then you would be free to marry again and would not be sinning. you are not held responsible for the sin of another.

if you think we differ in theology I would be interested in having you share that with me.

blessings to you. Jim

No. 60     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  May 22, 2017 at 1:31 AM     
jimmylynn wrote:
Deva, what about Paulian? Pauline? did Paul desert his wife for his ministry? did Jesus tell Paul to leave his wife and kids?


All those who ignore Jesus' words to put Paul's at the helm are Pauline Christians. They love the compromise formulas of him that clicked well with ungodly Gentiles. Neither Paul nor they knew very little of Jesus' preaching.

I consider Paul as a disciple of Christ and saint, but not his self-claims and apostleship. I believe, Paul was not married, nor did he encourage marriage. Peter left his wife to follow Jesus in accordance with His call.

A Christian marriage is not holy, but honorable that should be observed kept up for a life time.
No. 61     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 22, 2017 at 1:51 PM     
Hi Casandie. thank you for your support and kind words.

if you were married and your mate left and required a divorce then you would be free to marry again and would not be sinning. you are not held responsible for the sin of another.

if you think we differ in theology I would be interested in having you share that with me.

blessings to you. Jim


Hi Jimmy! Thank you for blessings returned.

Scriptures specifically state if an 'unbeliever' leaves then the other is free. It is my thought that each case would therefore be judged independently in the event a spouse walks out of a marriage. Quite a difficult situation. It brings us back to the question posed in the OP: who is a Christian?

We all fall short, yet we find the Apostles stating themselves Saints and perfect. This theological study confuses so many, therefore, an analysis must be done using the Bible as our guide --

Analysis: If we say we are without sin...then we lie, yet we are told to be without sin? How then do we meet this task (to be blameless before the world). In analysis, we can look at the book of Job. God stated Job was 'perfect.' Yet, we know that he was not (in every way), because we know that Christ was needed to redeem the sin of Adam. But we also know that God can not lie as a man can. So, in analysis, we find that Job was 'perfect' under the law (he gave 'extra sacrifices in case there was sin not told to him by his sons). This of course was the Mosaic Law. So Job was perfect under the the Mosaic law, but we fall under a new Covenant (Grace) that ought to be easier, but in truth...Grace was always the way to salvation (never our works). So for many discerning good and bad is far more difficult than the simplicity of the Old Law (yet I would personally have quite the difficulty killing animals even in sacrifice as I've never done so as a woman sheltered from that hardship).

Likewise, it is not from works on our own. So the real question in considering the OP is: Did we sin? Did we not? How about King David?

As scriptures explain Grace is of course not so we might sin. Heaven's no. Sin grieves our spirit. (sorry this is lengthy.) There are sins that lead to death and for those we are free of (we do not commit murder, drunkenness, idolatry, etc. and in that way we are perfect and without stain in this world). Yet it is also important to confess and recognize we all fall short and avoid casting stones at others (judging unrighteousnessly). Who shall we say is or is not a Christian then? I have difficult politically seeing anyone who supports abortion as a Christian, but in their conscious, they see it as the Lord governs us (the Lord allows us to kill others if we so chose to...albeit there is a penalty He foretells us).

To my belief, we each have our own conscious (if not seared) and the Lord convicts us to His Truth as we accept (it takes sacrifice on our part and with sacrifice comes suffering).

What the OP is really asking follows: 'are you worthy.' Philippians 1:28 addresses this when speaking of persecution and suffering. But in 'Grace' who then shall say another is worthy or another is not? We see fruit and love, but the heart of another (much as King David's) we cannot judge.

We can only say what Scriptures say.

You know, I face persecution all the time for not being wed. I do not dwell on it and leave the one for the Lord to Judge. Like Paul though, I find it great to marry for many, but maybe for some -- better not to marry if it might lead anyone away from the Lord versus closer to the Lord.

So the question remains: If a 'believer' leaves a marriage ... is the other free to remarry? For this I do not have the answer and I do not believe other's act of adultery is an excuse for our own acts.

Truly following Christ is 'hard' -- rock hard and I see many giving way to the flesh today instead of recognizing their 'own' sin (while easily recognizing the sin of others).

Blessings!
No. 62     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 22, 2017 at 6:13 PM     
CAsandie wrote:



What the OP is really asking follows: 'are you worthy.'


I agree with that but I'd even get more specific and ask: are you sold out?

Sold out believers will still sin, but but not sin unto death.

Sold out believers will seek repentance and reconciliation when necessary.

Sold out believers will exhibit a testimony reflecting their Lord.

And in referencing the OP: Sold out believers will not 'murder' a relationship, a marriage, by deserting it for capricious (and unbiblical) reasons.


How many 'believers' are really sold out? Only God knows for sure, but we may get a general idea, I think, by observation of the lives (the living out) of professing believers and can pretty well get an idea of what is "wheat" and what is "chaff."
No. 63     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 22, 2017 at 8:07 PM     
Storm -- Thanks and interesting thoughts.

I think the Lord gathers His own harvest and separates the tares from the wheat...but for a time they gather together... Amen?

Matthew 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

So it is not that easy at times to spot the tares or the wolves either (satan is a crafty one)...and it is unfortunate when a wolf gets her or his teeth into God's children.

On the differing question you suggest. I'm not so sure I like the phrase 'sold out' (sorry it's rather creepy to me)...how about "purchased with a price?" (=Christ's Blood)

Sold out believers will not 'murder' a relationship, a marriage, by deserting it for capricious (and unbiblical) reasons.


Yet when left, we live another day to spend with our "first" Love (the Lord), so no murder took place.

Marriage is an honorable institution and a ministry if the marriage is right. It can also be a tidal wave to destruction if the marriage is wrong (a lot of fighting/no focus on God/drama).

We must be careful to forgive no matter what the 'cost' to us in life (people with pain know I know pain. It was no easy task forgiving my Dad's murderer/I spent months of begging the Lord to hang on to my misery, anger and pain ... but I praise the day the Lord released me).

Life is truly for the Lord if we are truly 'in,' it's beyond the Storms in life (not you as my Brother...but literal storms) and "He" is truly our "soul" purpose (pun intended). Yes, I have flesh too though and understand the hurt and desires held, the devastation and mourning as it's like a part of your soul ripped out (just as with death)...

Yet, truly we do stand complete in the Lord and our numbered days are so important to Him.

Thanks for recognizing my post (and especially reading these due to the length -- I am honored)! :hug:

No. 64     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 22, 2017 at 11:23 PM     
CAsandie wrote:



Sold out believers will not 'murder' a relationship, a marriage, by deserting it for capricious (and unbiblical) reasons.


Yet when left, we live another day to spend with our "first" Love (the Lord), so no murder took place.




Very ambiguous. Are you suggesting a marriage cannot be murdered (destroyed, in context)?
No. 65     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 23, 2017 at 2:09 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:



Sold out believers will not 'murder' a relationship, a marriage, by deserting it for capricious (and unbiblical) reasons.


Yet when left, we live another day to spend with our "first" Love (the Lord), so no murder took place.




Very ambiguous. Are you suggesting a marriage cannot be murdered (destroyed, in context)?


No. But murder and destruction of a union are two separate things.

I'm suggesting we ourselves live through very, very painful things and still have our 'First Love' (Christ) Who strengthens us and brings joy to us again.

Do I believe one who destroys a marriage is a murderer? No. It might feel like murder though. I do feel some of the actions of divorced couples equate to spiritual murder of the other (I've seen parents try to turn children against the other parent and with slander, which we know is listed in the sins that leads to death).

As hard as it is, we pray for another who rips out our heart and spits on us. That prayer will lead to joy eventually. I only know this from my Dad's life being taken early (I only healed when I forgave the one who murdered my Dad and then thereafter...joy re-entered my heart). It took years. We move past death with hope of seeing our loved one again though. Let me say this...in heaven there is no marrying. Peace is held. Love restored, but it is not eros that is stronger. Only with His Grace and the realization that we have Him (we haven't lost our life ... it will flourish again...but first 'we' must forgive, release our hurt, seek His Healing).

My two cents anyway, fwiw. Forgiveness is freedom from 'our own' oppression against ourselves ... if that makes sense. God wants us joyful and free from the cruelties that come against...but does not take our lives. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.


No. 66     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 23, 2017 at 9:29 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:
Very ambiguous. Are you suggesting a marriage cannot be murdered (destroyed, in context)?


No. But murder and destruction of a union are two separate things.


I believe if you consult a thesaurus, you will find them listed as synonyms.



Do I believe one who destroys a marriage is a murderer? No.


Well, now. Let's consult a dictionary (.com) and see what we come up with...

murderer - one who commits murder.

murder -

verb (used with object)

4.Law.to kill by an act constituting murder.

5.to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

6.to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.:
The tenor murdered the aria.



Ok then, let's check out destruction...

destruction

noun

1.the act of destroying :
wanton destruction of a town.

2.the condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation.

3.a cause or means of destroying.


I do believe the dictionary makes my meaning quite clear, and allows the latitude to do so.
No. 67     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 23, 2017 at 10:30 PM     

Storm ... My thought in answering your question is that one is not 'physically' dead when a spouse leaves them (maybe they feel murdered though as I said). They are not dead 'spiritually' either if walking with the Lord, right?

I believe if you consult a thesaurus, you will find them listed as synonyms.


But you have 'destroying a marriage' and 'murder' here which are not synonyms.

Tell you what though -- I'll meet you half way and say that a spouse could 'murder a marriage,'

(but I don't think it's proper grammar).





No. 68     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 23, 2017 at 10:44 PM     
CAsandie wrote:


Storm ... My thought in answering your question is that one is not 'physically' dead when a spouse leaves them



Yes, yes, yes, you covered that and the dictionary also did in #4 above (Law), but I only wanted to point out that the definition and use can be used in a wider capacity (#7 above), so there :naanaa:
No. 69     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 25, 2017 at 4:23 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:


Storm ... My thought in answering your question is that one is not 'physically' dead when a spouse leaves them



Yes, yes, yes, you covered that and the dictionary also did in #4 above (Law), but I only wanted to point out that the definition and use can be used in a wider capacity (#7 above), so there :naanaa:


I see your point now (you mean #6 above) ... but I'm still thinking it's a stretch. :-p

No. 70     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 26, 2017 at 4:01 PM     
greendiamond wrote:

.....have witnessed great cruelties endorsed among the OMAM crowd......

.....'told my daughter.......
"you find yourself in an abusive/unhealthy relationship......
.....you get out......especially if there's children involved.......
divorce is not the unpardonable sin"........

.......can o' worms dot com........:coffeenpc:


While I would hope that marriage is held in such respect that when such a situation arises, healing help would first be sought to avoid more drastic measures, I will mostly address whether a divorce is biblically permissable in such a situation.

At one time, I would have insisted that the exceptional clause given by scripture pertains only to porneia (sexual infidelity), but even then I would still be uncomfortable in saying that a spouse and children in such a situation should remain.

But now, older and wiser, I have come to accept the definition of adultery to include "the radical breach of marital fidelity." which certainly would include porneia but expanded to also include other considerations, such as gross physical abuse.

This is not merely a convenient excuse, but an arguable point of biblical doctrine, and I can go further in debate if anyone wishes to do so.
No. 71     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  greendiamond   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  May 26, 2017 at 5:23 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

greendiamond wrote:

.....have witnessed great cruelties endorsed among the OMAM crowd......

.....'told my daughter.......
"you find yourself in an abusive/unhealthy relationship......
.....you get out......especially if there's children involved.......
divorce is not the unpardonable sin"........

.......can o' worms dot com........:coffeenpc:


While I would hope that marriage is held in such respect that when such a situation arises, healing help would first be sought to avoid more drastic measures, I will mostly address whether a divorce is biblically permissable in such a situation.

At one time, I would have insisted that the exceptional clause given by scripture pertains only to porneia (sexual infidelity), but even then I would still be uncomfortable in saying that a spouse and children in such a situation should remain.

But now, older and wiser, I have come to accept the definition of adultery to include "the radical breach of marital fidelity." which certainly would include porneia but expanded to also include other considerations, such as gross physical abuse.

This is not merely a convenient excuse, but an arguable point of biblical doctrine, and I can go further in debate if anyone wishes to do so.



.......Thanx for the getback Storm......
No. 72     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  May 26, 2017 at 8:17 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

greendiamond wrote:

.....have witnessed great cruelties endorsed among the OMAM crowd......

.....'told my daughter.......
"you find yourself in an abusive/unhealthy relationship......
.....you get out......especially if there's children involved.......
divorce is not the unpardonable sin"........

.......can o' worms dot com........:coffeenpc:


While I would hope that marriage is held in such respect that when such a situation arises, healing help would first be sought to avoid more drastic measures, I will mostly address whether a divorce is biblically permissable in such a situation.

At one time, I would have insisted that the exceptional clause given by scripture pertains only to porneia (sexual infidelity), but even then I would still be uncomfortable in saying that a spouse and children in such a situation should remain.

But now, older and wiser, I have come to accept the definition of adultery to include "the radical breach of marital fidelity." which certainly would include porneia but expanded to also include other considerations, such as gross physical abuse.

This is not merely a convenient excuse, but an arguable point of biblical doctrine, and I can go further in debate if anyone wishes to do so.


Matthew 5
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Mark 10
11 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;

12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16
18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.


Only Matthew gives a permissible reason for divorce whereas others don't. The spiritual understanding should be based on what is not convenient for us leading to suffering, not convenient and comfortable scholarly doctrines. That is how Gospel gets distorted with speculations and 'ear tickling' theology! :tongue:
No. 73     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  greendiamond   Gender: F   Age: 63   on  May 27, 2017 at 12:53 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

greendiamond wrote:

.....have witnessed great cruelties endorsed among the OMAM crowd......

.....'told my daughter.......
"you find yourself in an abusive/unhealthy relationship......
.....you get out......especially if there's children involved.......
divorce is not the unpardonable sin"........

.......can o' worms dot com........:coffeenpc:




While I would hope that marriage is held in such respect that when such a situation arises, healing help would first be sought to avoid more drastic measures, I will mostly address whether a divorce is biblically permissable in such a situation.

At one time, I would have insisted that the exceptional clause given by scripture pertains only to porneia (sexual infidelity), but even then I would still be uncomfortable in saying that a spouse and children in such a situation should remain.

But now, older and wiser, I have come to accept the definition of adultery to include "the radical breach of marital fidelity." which certainly would include porneia but expanded to also include other considerations, such as gross physical abuse.

This is not merely a convenient excuse, but an arguable point of biblical doctrine, and I can go further in debate if anyone wishes to do so.


Matthew 5
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Mark 10
11 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;

12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16
18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.


Only Matthew gives a permissible reason for divorce whereas others don't. The spiritual understanding should be based on what is not convenient for us leading to suffering, not convenient and comfortable scholarly doctrines. That is how Gospel gets distorted with speculations and 'ear tickling' theology! :tongue:


.....thanx for the getback Deva......

.....nobody's talkin' 'bout remarriage here......
.....just sayin'......:coffeenpc:
No. 74     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  May 27, 2017 at 5:41 AM     
greendiamond wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

greendiamond wrote:

.....have witnessed great cruelties endorsed among the OMAM crowd......

.....'told my daughter.......
"you find yourself in an abusive/unhealthy relationship......
.....you get out......especially if there's children involved.......
divorce is not the unpardonable sin"........

.......can o' worms dot com........:coffeenpc:




While I would hope that marriage is held in such respect that when such a situation arises, healing help would first be sought to avoid more drastic measures, I will mostly address whether a divorce is biblically permissable in such a situation.

At one time, I would have insisted that the exceptional clause given by scripture pertains only to porneia (sexual infidelity), but even then I would still be uncomfortable in saying that a spouse and children in such a situation should remain.

But now, older and wiser, I have come to accept the definition of adultery to include "the radical breach of marital fidelity." which certainly would include porneia but expanded to also include other considerations, such as gross physical abuse.

This is not merely a convenient excuse, but an arguable point of biblical doctrine, and I can go further in debate if anyone wishes to do so.


Matthew 5
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Mark 10
11 And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;

12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16
18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.


Only Matthew gives a permissible reason for divorce whereas others don't. The spiritual understanding should be based on what is not convenient for us leading to suffering, not convenient and comfortable scholarly doctrines. That is how Gospel gets distorted with speculations and 'ear tickling' theology! :tongue:


.....thanx for the getback Deva......

.....nobody's talkin' 'bout remarriage here......
.....just sayin'......:coffeenpc:


The reason of non-remarriage will not offer shelter in this case:

Malachi 2
16 For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously."

No. 75     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  May 27, 2017 at 1:52 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

You call Me Eternal, then do not seek Me.
You call Me Fair, then do not love Me.
You call Me Gracious, then do not trust Me.
You call Me Just, then do not fear Me.
You call Me Life, then do not choose Me.
You call Me Light, then do not see Me.
You call Me Lord, then do not respect Me.
You call Me Master, then do not obey Me.
You call Me Merciful, then do not thank Me.
You call Me Mighty, then do not honor Me.
You call Me Noble, then do not serve Me.
You call Me Rich, then do not ask Me.
You call Me Savior, then do not praise Me.
You call Me Shepherd, then do not follow Me.
You call Me the Way, then do not walk with Me.
You call Me Wise, then do not heed Me.
You call Me Son of God, then do not worship Me.
When I sentence you, then do not blame Me.



I liked this Stormchaser ... thanks for sharing it with us. I have no comment at this time on this thread, but there is a " good discussion " going on with this particular topic.
No. 76     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 27, 2017 at 6:30 PM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

You call Me Eternal, then do not seek Me.
You call Me Fair, then do not love Me.
You call Me Gracious, then do not trust Me.
You call Me Just, then do not fear Me.
You call Me Life, then do not choose Me.
You call Me Light, then do not see Me.
You call Me Lord, then do not respect Me.
You call Me Master, then do not obey Me.
You call Me Merciful, then do not thank Me.
You call Me Mighty, then do not honor Me.
You call Me Noble, then do not serve Me.
You call Me Rich, then do not ask Me.
You call Me Savior, then do not praise Me.
You call Me Shepherd, then do not follow Me.
You call Me the Way, then do not walk with Me.
You call Me Wise, then do not heed Me.
You call Me Son of God, then do not worship Me.
When I sentence you, then do not blame Me.



I liked this Stormchaser ... thanks for sharing it with us. I have no comment at this time on this thread, but there is a " good discussion " going on with this particular topic.


Thank you. It is a topic that will stretch us, if we let it. I include myself in that statement.
No. 77     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 27, 2017 at 7:17 PM     
jimmylynn wrote:



and give to [pay] the poor and orphans and widows in need. I like to throw this out for those of you who think they are not commanded to tithe. I know it has been beaten on. a whole thread.


Why would you, Jimmy, think that giving to orphans and widows is limited to the tithe? For that matter, do you really believe God's benevolence is limited to the tithe?



but. why should a christian stay in a bad marriage to an evil and or abussive mate?

I would like to see the wronged christian seperate for a season for talk and counseling to save a marriage.


I wouldn't. When the two who became one become two once more and live separate lives, it only makes it harder to reconcile, let alone violating the biblical definition of marriage being a covenant of companionship. How can you be a (marital) companion to someone living separately from you?

Answer: you can't!

Plus your own example quoted below supports this position...


I know a woman who waited 8 years for her husband to return to their marriage from his love affair - and he finally asked her for divorce.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


seems we tell a christian by their actions. if actions stink then why would we think they are a christian? because they say they are? because they go to church? because they got baptized? because they tithe?

yes we are to judge.

yes we are to exhort.

Jesus will condemn.



Really liked what you wrote here, Jimmy, and it is similar to some things I will shortly be saying.
No. 78     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  jimmylynn   Gender: M   Age: 72   on  May 28, 2017 at 12:39 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

jimmylynn wrote:



and give to [pay] the poor and orphans and widows in need. I like to throw this out for those of you who think they are not commanded to tithe. I know it has been beaten on. a whole thread.


Why would you, Jimmy, think that giving to orphans and widows is limited to the tithe? For that matter, do you really believe God's benevolence is limited to the tithe?



but. why should a christian stay in a bad marriage to an evil and or abussive mate?

I would like to see the wronged christian seperate for a season for talk and counseling to save a marriage.


I wouldn't. When the two who became one become two once more and live separate lives, it only makes it harder to reconcile, let alone violating the biblical definition of marriage being a covenant of companionship. How can you be a (marital) companion to someone living separately from you?

Answer: you can't!

Plus your own example quoted below supports this position...


I know a woman who waited 8 years for her husband to return to their marriage from his love affair - and he finally asked her for divorce.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


seems we tell a christian by their actions. if actions stink then why would we think they are a christian? because they say they are? because they go to church? because they got baptized? because they tithe?

yes we are to judge.

yes we are to exhort.

Jesus will condemn.



Really liked what you wrote here, Jimmy, and it is similar to some things I will shortly be saying.

.
.
Hi storm. i am not sure what you mean by giving limited to tithe.

not sure what you mean by Gods benevolence limited to tithe.

I was making a reference to James 1.27. let your religion be giving to poor and not be worldly.

I bet most of the people who read this are not tithing - even though they cold afford to.

my perspective is if you love Jesus you obey and tithe - and more if possible. tithe is a minimum. a starting point. to show we love.

so what is your perspective?

regarding staying in marriage. my thought was a christian should wait a bit before hurrying to get a divorce because spouse cheated. try to reconcile. try to counsel. of course I realize the cheater may not be willing to save the marriage. but I think a christian should try even though they are badly hurt.

here is Pauls words from ephesians 5 maybe others have presented it

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

2 commandments. Love God. Love your wife.

blessings. Jim



No. 79     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 28, 2017 at 11:59 AM     
jimmylynn wrote:


Hi storm. i am not sure what you mean by giving limited to tithe.

not sure what you mean by Gods benevolence limited to tithe.

I was making a reference to James 1.27. let your religion be giving to poor and not be worldly.

I bet most of the people who read this are not tithing - even though they cold afford to.

my perspective is if you love Jesus you obey and tithe - and more if possible. tithe is a minimum. a starting point. to show we love.

so what is your perspective?


A debate about tithing would take this particular thread far afield and off-topic, IMHO, so I will only briefly state that my view is that the New Testament teaching of money and finances is that we are to be generous with them.

So when I commented/questioned your focus on tithes as seemingly the answer, I was suggesting that it wasn't enough, as you yourself just agreed with on your statement, "my perspective is if you love Jesus you obey and tithe - and more if possible. tithe is a minimum. a starting point. to show we love" is right on as far as that goes.

I would be included in your summation that most here do not tithe, though I did so for many, many years, due to pulpit-teaching, rather than from personal conviction based on biblical teaching, of which once I put time in on the specific topic (tithing), I found the pulpit teaching was, like on so many other topics, wrong.

As I said, I don't intend to debate tithing here, but I would be willing to on another thread geared to that topic, though I don't intend to start one myself.



regarding staying in marriage. my thought was a christian should wait a bit before hurrying to get a divorce because spouse cheated. try to reconcile. try to counsel. of course I realize the cheater may not be willing to save the marriage. but I think a christian should try even though they are badly hurt.

here is Pauls words from ephesians 5 maybe others have presented it

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

2 commandments. Love God. Love your wife.

blessings. Jim



I do agree with everything in this statement.

No. 80     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 29, 2017 at 5:45 PM     
So, continuing on the situation that lead to the creation of this thread (my ex dumping the marriage), my ex was seemingly a Christian. She went to church every Sunday; she had a testimony (of sorts, I now realize), she had her own Bible and even read it sometimes outside of church, she mouthed all the right and catchy Christian phrases; she enjoyed attending Christian festivals and events with me, and a host of other indications.

In short, by just about all the standards that Christians apply today to recognize other Christians, she passed the test.

If fact, until about the last year or so (19 yrs. ago currently when she abandoned the marriage), I would have argued that she was indeed a Christian, albeit a mistaken and deceived one.

But over the last year or so I have been learning new things, or more about things I previously had pretty much ignored.

I learned that professing Christians might have some serious problems making the final 'cut.'

I learned that those who said and claimed, "Lord, lord..." might not make the 'cut.'

And most recently I learned that apostacy and apostates were not what I had previously had a vague idea they were, but rather some of these people we are discussing.

(more coming...)
No. 81     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Kari   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  May 29, 2017 at 5:59 PM     
when you continue, would you expound a bit on why you doubt your ex wifes relationship with Christ. Is it based solely on her divorcing you? Only if you find it relative to the topic.


No. 82     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 29, 2017 at 6:27 PM     
Kari wrote:

when you continue, would you expound a bit on why you doubt your ex wifes relationship with Christ. Is it based solely on her divorcing you? Only if you find it relative to the topic.




I will; it is the whole point of this thread, and keep in mind this timeline:

1998 - Marriage ended
1998-2016 - I still believed her to be a believer, in spite of her actions. This is the 18 year period after the desertion.

Also keep in mind this is no ways a witch-hunt. What's done is done, and I have most definitely moved on. But I do believe that God will continue to teach us (should we be open to it) from our experiences, so though the hurt and pain from this period is mostly gone, and I am not really enjoying revisiting it now, yet I realize that there are 'gems', I'd even call them Godly gems of wisdom that are there to be gleaned by those willing to face them, question them, and absorb them.
No. 83     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  May 29, 2017 at 8:10 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Kari wrote:

when you continue, would you expound a bit on why you doubt your ex wifes relationship with Christ. Is it based solely on her divorcing you? Only if you find it relative to the topic.




I will; it is the whole point of this thread, and keep in mind this timeline:

1998 - Marriage ended
1998-2016 - I still believed her to be a believer, in spite of her actions. This is the 18 year period after the desertion.

Also keep in mind this is no ways a witch-hunt. What's done is done, and I have most definitely moved on. But I do believe that God will continue to teach us (should we be open to it) from our experiences, so though the hurt and pain from this period is mostly gone, and I am not really enjoying revisiting it now, yet I realize that there are 'gems', I'd even call them Godly gems of wisdom that are there to be gleaned by those willing to face them, question them, and absorb them.


Sorry to note your experience in marital relationship earlier.

Yeah, everyone is a believer in Christ, but in what sort of way is the question?

For many, it is simply cozy virtual Christianity without Christ!
No. 84     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  May 30, 2017 at 12:19 PM     
- continuing...

The true test (of not only marriage, but living in Christ) is, of course, when stress comes in, when pressures appear, when the refiner's fire, if you will, happens...and it always does.

A prime strength of marriage, and a prime indicator of deeper problems when it doesn't happen, is communication. Marriage is much more than simply cuddling, or sex. One's commitment also involves work, and responsibility, and obligations.

Over a period of time, my ex failed in these things. It was not immediately noticeable to me, other than individual failings, so I guess you could say I chose to remain ignorant of some slow-growing problems.

Finally though, I began waking up to the growing problems, and I approached her to attempt to work things out. She totally shrugged it off, saying there were no problems.

So much for good communication.

My mistake at this point was to let it go, as we men often do when it comes to relationships.

It was years later that the issue became open again, and only then because at THAT time she had issues with my own failings of my responsibilities. And she was right, I had begun failing in some of my marital obligations, but as with many issues, one has to dig a little to 'find the gold', so-to-speak.

The reality was, due to her own lack of concern to 'keep her side of the bargain', my own interest in keeping the marriage viable fell into disinterest over a long period of time. As they say, the 'spark' had gone out of the relationship and it evolved into a day-to-day humdrum of working, focus on the kids and their needs, and that sort of thing.

In short, a typical American marriage in so many ways.

(more to come...)
No. 85     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 4, 2017 at 7:41 PM     
Now that I've given some background leading up to 'the last days' of my marriage and the reason for this thread, let's begin to get to the business at hand.

I'm going to highlight in red the specific actions (or sins) that indicate there might be something to what I am suggesting in this thread. There are several events that preceded 'the last days,' and many more in the very last stages of the marriage, almost as if the deceptions were dropping off and the real person was emerging on her part, but we'll get to that.

One important problem that preceded 'the last days' should be given some attention. That problem was disobedience.

Our society has been so deluged with feminist ideology that the very idea of obedience tends to make the feminist crowd go mad with hatred, and even among Christians the whole concept has been influenced by the feminist culture to the point that it is hardly even taught anymore.

I'm not going to debate it here either. Most of the disobedience I will bring up deals with my ex's response to God rather than myself, but there is one act that needs to be discussed.

Understand that I am not the sort of person to demand obedience, and in fact in my marriage it was usually me who gave in to 'suggestions' from my wife rather than the reverse. Having said that, there was a problem with her willingness to follow me in ministry.

We had changed churches a few times, and when we we're at the one she decided to stick with forever (remember what I just said, "she decided"), I had originally told her we probably wouldn't stay there. In my mind, it was ok for the time being but I knew that God had other plans for us.

So when the time came, I felt called to help with a Willow Creek startup church. They needed musicians, which I was, and the guy (pastor) running the show and I had a good relationship, like-minded on some important points, and I believed God was telling me to make the move.

I discussed it with my wife, but she put her foot down and said no, she was going to stay where she was...along with the kids. In fact, she used the kids as her excuse, saying it was disruptive for them to be changing churches.

I disagreed and told her she should stand by me.

She didn't - a major red flag leading up to 'the last days.'


Now I suppose you can argue whether or not God was really leading me, but if you would argue that God might be leading a Christian wife through disobedience to her Christian husband, then I would argue you don't know what a scriptural marriage is..

So that was the situation we were in leading up to 'the last days' - a husband attending one church, desiring his family to be there with him, and a wife refusing to do so, insisting the kids staying with her - a sure indication of trouble to come.

(Incidentally, her church will be addressed more in subsequent posts, but for the moment know that she had found she could manipulate the leadership there, and that God eventually brought destruction upon that church.)

more later...
No. 86     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  texascowgirl283   Gender: F   Age: 50   on  Jun 4, 2017 at 11:28 PM     
I say leave the bible out of a marriage. Adam and eve had no marriage the way we do with a wedding ceremony and exchange of rings and stuff. That part of it is all man made therefore its already unbiblical from day one. I still dont know how adam and eve were married, except a rib was took from him to make her, his helper and they were told to be fruitful and multiply. I also dont beleive in involving others into a marriage situation. If you can't get along, then divorce. No man can make two people get along, all they can do is listen to you tell them all your private business.

PS. I know Im not suppose to talk in here and it will be my last time. I do not know how long I will remain in MC anyway. It's so slow and Im staying alot more busier than I have been with alot of changes happening in my life. I have cut way back on mc and eventually may not even come at all. who knows.
No. 87     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 5, 2017 at 10:08 AM     
texascowgirl283 wrote:

I say leave the bible out of a marriage.


And with that you've said enough.
No. 88     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 5, 2017 at 3:32 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

- continuing...

The true test (of not only marriage, but living in Christ) is, of course, when stress comes in, when pressures appear, when the refiner's fire, if you will, happens...and it always does.

A prime strength of marriage, and a prime indicator of deeper problems when it doesn't happen, is communication. Marriage is much more than simply cuddling, or sex. One's commitment also involves work, and responsibility, and obligations.

Over a period of time, my ex failed in these things. It was not immediately noticeable to me, other than individual failings, so I guess you could say I chose to remain ignorant of some slow-growing problems.

Finally though, I began waking up to the growing problems, and I approached her to attempt to work things out. She totally shrugged it off, saying there were no problems.

So much for good communication.

My mistake at this point was to let it go, as we men often do when it comes to relationships.



This is almost exactly what happened in my marriage.

My wife just left, without notice, and gave ZERO attempt to resolve and heal the marriage. She refused pastoral and Christian counseling.

She left and didn't care that we put in 12 years and that I loved her dearly, cared for her, provided for her, helped her in so many areas. She had her issues (eating disorder, depression, difficult personality, etc) but I loved her and dealt with those issues and never would have left her even when she did hurtful things at me. It wasn't easy but I never did and never would leave her.

She sought out friends who were not being guided by God and His Word. She took secular advice from them and left and filed for divorce. These people were evil and I called them "agents of Satan" because they only sought to destroy the marriage and not seek healing and Godly guidance. She listened to them instead of our pastors and God's Word.

No. 89     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 6, 2017 at 12:36 PM     
So let's get on with the meat of this particular story.

I've been pretty wordy giving out the prequel of this situation, so now I will endeavor to be as brief as possible, not mentioning many details as only the OP will be the deciding factor of posting, NOT the many additional details of regrettable actions that could be mentioned.

So near the end of 1997 and the beginning of 1998, my wife, beginning to reap the consequences of failure of her own responsibilities (though never admitting that), said she wished to get some counselling, to which I agreed she should.

She began with the pastor who married us, a good friend to both. That did not last long at all. She discontinued it, claiming that the pastor and our good friend, Larry, was too close of a friend to myself, therefore hinting he was too biased.

Here's the thing: though it was certainly true that Larry and I were long-term friends, he was also a long-term friend to her also, having been friends with both of us during our 18 yr. marriage and time before. He had been a faithful friend to both of us over that period.

So why the dumping of his services? Turns out that she wasn't really interested in working on the marriage at all, but rather she was only interested in manipulation and condemnation. The thin excuse of his friendship with me, which predated her arrival on the scene, was merely a justification of her avoidance of facing her own sins of the marriage, and also an indication of a spiritual problem, which I will shortly reveal in a subsequent post.

Years later, after the marital split was said and done, Larry revealed to me that my ex had attempted to manipulate him into agreeing with her own position, and to help her manipulate me. Larry, being a Godly man, had nothing to do with that, and told her so. Larry told me, at that later date years later, that he said nothing to me at the time of her attempt to corrupt him, wishing to not add to any acrimony at the time and only desiring for the marriage to succeed.

So the ungodly acts began to multiply. She wished to manipulate me, by manipulating Pastor Larry, and when that did not work out for her plans, she abandoned the counseling, and lied to me about the reason.

So we have manipulation, the beginning of lies, and of course no attempt from her to address her own problems.

Keep in mind the OP, and how it is being addressed, rather than perhaps thinking I am listing a litany of poor me items. I am building a case here, which will soon be complete.

Also keep in mind that this person still maintained the pretense of being a 'wonderful woman of God', attending church faithfully, being a good mother, being a 'good' [sic] wife, etc.

- more coming -

No. 90     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 7, 2017 at 1:38 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

So let's get on with the meat of this particular story.


So why the dumping of his services? Turns out that she wasn't really interested in working on the marriage at all, but rather she was only interested in manipulation and condemnation. The thin excuse of his friendship with me, which predated her arrival on the scene, was merely a justification of her avoidance of facing her own sins of the marriage, and also an indication of a spiritual problem, which I will shortly reveal in a subsequent post.

Years later, after the marital split was said and done, Larry revealed to me that my ex had attempted to manipulate him into agreeing with her own position, and to help her manipulate me. Larry, being a Godly man, had nothing to do with that, and told her so. Larry told me, at that later date years later, that he said nothing to me at the time of her attempt to corrupt him, wishing to not add to any acrimony at the time and only desiring for the marriage to succeed.

So we have manipulation, the beginning of lies, and of course no attempt from her to address her own problems.

Keep in mind the OP, and how it is being addressed, rather than perhaps thinking I am listing a litany of poor me items. I am building a case here, which will soon be complete.

Also keep in mind that this person still maintained the pretense of being a 'wonderful woman of God', attending church faithfully, being a good mother, being a 'good' [sic] wife, etc.

- more coming -



Very interesting. The same Modus Operandii was used by my wife. She manipulated her parents into accepting her position to divorce and made me the bad guy (condemnation) by making things up and over-exaggerating two or three arguments we had 11 years ago at the beginning of our marriage. She drudged up something 11+ years ago, that happened once and never was repeated, but she dug up the past and searched for an audience who would find sympathy for her and then it was condemnation time against me.

My wife also refused to address her OWN PROBLEMS she had, and there were many. She made me into the bad guy by lying, manipulating her parents and some friends she had, and she refused to address that she had many issues and problems and she was not being a good wife.

When she separated, I asked her to seek Christian counseling to reconcile but she said she "didn't have the time" and that "she was not interested" plus she was then into "Mind Alive" which uses flash therapy and alters ones brain chemistry. It was discussed on this forum on how it changes a person to no longer feel empathy.

So instead of seeking Godly counseling, she sought worldly counseling, all while claiming she was doing "God's Will" by choosing to divorce me.

Looks like my ex-wife took the same playbook from your ex-wife. That's what happens when they are led by the prince of this world and his ways.
No. 91     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 7, 2017 at 7:13 PM     
Continuing on, my wife, after blowing out of counseling with the pastor and friend who married us, found herself a secular counselor and began sessions with him.

After a bit, she asked me to join her in these sessions. In one of the few areas she actually did things right, in asking me to join her, she first praised me for several things (American wives, even American Christian wives, are not especially known for praising their husbands, though praise is something that men almost gasp for from their wives, getting little from the the world about them). I was like putty in her hands and of course agreed to join her in counselling.

As an additional encouragement to get me to go, she suggested I could use these sessions to relate what I thought was wrong with the marriage. Keep that in mind as we get further into this.

So we began the counseling sessions with Mr. Secular Counselor. In actuallity, I thought him quite professional and very good after the first session.

There ended up being only two sessions.

Session 1-

He worked with us both, having us make some agreements that were designed for better communication. After the session was over, I was leaving for a weekend visit with my sister in Ky. My wife asked me to take some of that time to write down some of the results of our agreement. I agreed to do so, and I did do so while on my trip.

I in turn asked her to similarly write down her thoughts and results. She also agreed to do so.

I was very encouraged and happy. "Finally," I thought, "we're getting somewhere." How little I knew...

When I returned from my trip, she asked me if I had written down the things we had agreed to write down, and I told her that yes, I had done so. I was very serious to getting the marriage back on track, plus I had given my word, and that is very important to me as a Godly man.

I then asked her if she has also written down her own homework, as agreed upon. She told me no. I asked her why not and she told me it was all up in her head.

So it ended up being another lie; another manipulation. It was a lie, as she had promised she would participate in this exercise...and didn't, and it was another manipulation from the standpoint that it was well & good for ME to work on (my) problems, but she couldn't be bothered to work on her own since she was blameless and no fault could be attributed to her own holiness.

I should add that prior to the beginning of this counseling, she had been blaming the problems of the marriage 100% on me; but when the time came near to attend the first session, she changed her story a bit, putting 80% of the blame on me and 20% on herself. Wonder why that changed, right before we were to see a professional who likely would not find a charge of 100% blame on one person very credible???

Session 2 - the next week

So we came to the 2nd session, and at this session I was given the floor to speak. I first mentioned her failure to do the agreed upon homework.

I then began describing the problems from my point of view, documenting how she had begun failing on her own obligations of the marriage a full decade before she herself began having problems with my own lacks.

Well let me tell you, she didn't like hearing THAT!

Remember earlier my mentioning that one of the things she said to convince me to come to the counselling sessions was that I could bring up my own criticisms?

Ho, Ho, Ho.

Once I said my piece, she abruptly said, "I'm not hearing what I want to hear, and I'm going to go ahead and separate!"

What??? Where did that come from? There had been no talk at all of separation, not a word. Yet here, the minute her own actions were put up for review, she blew out of the marriage by an abrupt decision to abandon the marriage?

(At this point, some might claim that marital separation is not marital abandonment, but I choose to follow the arguments of Jay Adams that Biblical marriage is a covenant of companionship, and such companionship is not in evidence any longer when the two become not one, but two, by separating [biblically-speaking, a divorce] and having two residences, two lifestyles, kids ripped away from one spouse, etc., then you have a broken marriage, not merely a troubled one).

But was the decision to separate (divorce) all that abrupt? Even though it was to me, it turns out she had 'discussed' it previously with the counselor, prior, apparently, to my own involvement with the counseling sessions.

Another words, it was all scripted out ahead of time, and she only needed the excuse that I was not going to appease her by allowing her to control the narrative. I, of course, knew nothing of this, and came to the sessions only desiring healing and restoration back to a viable marriage, but that was not her agenda at all. Control and manipulation was instead.

I did not get the impression that the counselor, secular or not, was on-board with her plans. He seemed to genuinely want to help us both, just like the pastor who married us, but it became very obvious she was going by a different playbook, and that book was not the Bible. So my impression is that she told him ahead of time of her plans to separate if she didn't get her own way, and though he did not think it was a good idea, he went along with it if only to get us talking. Talking (communicating), however, was not on her list. Control and manipulation was.

So that was the end of the sessions with the professional counselor; all two of them. I was SHOCKED at the abrupt decision to essentially end the marriage, and was not about to return to counseling sessions in an environment that clearly (once I recovered from the shock) was only designed to control and manipulate me, rather than to bring about healing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be clear at this point that a pattern had emerged. Lies, control, manipulation - repeating patterns suggesting of an ungoldy life, rather than one-time sinful events. But hold on, there's more...
No. 92     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 8, 2017 at 6:11 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

It should be clear at this point that a pattern had emerged. Lies, control, manipulation - repeating patterns suggesting of an ungoldy life, rather than one-time sinful events. But hold on, there's more...


Before I move on to the next set of experiences, you might be asking yourself, "How could this person get away with all this crap? Didn't others see what was going on and bring some correction into her (your) lives?"

The answer is that first of all our marriage lasted 18 yrs. before she went off the deep end. Granted, some of the manipulation was present prior to the end, but only she and I knew of it. Actually, only I did, for she would not acknowledge it. At any rate, to most our marriage was a 'good' one and no apparent problems.

The other thing is that she would not stay with any counseling that gave any indication of requiring herself to be accountable. She dumped our pastor. She dumped (actually, controled) her own professional counselor. She finally found herself some foolish Christian leaders whom she was able to sway, based on a (her) one-sided testimony (this will be covered in the next post).


One other thing should be mentioned. At the point of the story in the last post, she had abandoned the marriage. In our age of rather loose interpretations, many Christians seem to think that is ok, but we're talking about someone who not only commits sins against the marriage, but who actually 'breaks' the marital covenant - a three-way covenant between husband, wife, and God.

If you don't know much about covenant-breakers, and how God feels about them, I recommend doing an in-depth study of the Scriptures.

The breaking of a marital covenant can be described as something much deeper than marital sins and violations. In fact, breaking a marital covenant is essentially committing treason against the marriage, against your mate, and most importantly, treason against God. It is like the sin of David committed against Uriah, adultery with Uriah's wife, Bathsheba. Yet a deeper, darker sin was committed by David when he feared his adultery would be discovered by Uriah, and arranged for the the murder of Uriah to hide his own sin.

Even non-believers tend to regard treason against one's country, or even family, as just about the worst thing anyone can do, and they react with disgust, contempt, and even shunning of those who commit such a hideous sin.

Treason breaks a marriage, and it is a much deeper sin then other marital violations/sins, which can be forgiven and healed.

And so my (now ex) wife had not only established a pattern of repetitive sin, but she was now guilty of treason. Keep these things in mind viz a viz the thread title and as more corruption is revealed in subsequent posts.

No. 93     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 9, 2017 at 2:53 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

One other thing should be mentioned. At the point of the story in the last post, she had abandoned the marriage. In our age of rather loose interpretations, many Christians seem to think that is ok, but we're talking about someone who not only commits sins against the marriage, but who actually 'breaks' the marital covenant - a three-way covenant between husband, wife, and God.

If you don't know much about covenant-breakers, and how God feels about them, I recommend doing an in-depth study of the Scriptures.

The breaking of a marital covenant can be described as something much deeper than marital sins and violations. In fact, breaking a marital covenant is essentially committing treason against the marriage, against your mate, and most importantly, treason against God. It is like the sin of David committed against Uriah, adultery with Uriah's wife, Bathsheba. Yet a deeper, darker sin was committed by David when he feared his adultery would be discovered by Uriah, and arranged for the the murder of Uriah to hide his own sin.

Even non-believers tend to regard treason against one's country, or even family, as just about the worst thing anyone can do, and they react with disgust, contempt, and even shunning of those who commit such a hideous sin.

Treason breaks a marriage, and it is a much deeper sin then other marital violations/sins, which can be forgiven and healed.

And so my (now ex) wife had not only established a pattern of repetitive sin, but she was now guilty of treason. Keep these things in mind viz a viz the thread title and as more corruption is revealed in subsequent posts.



Stormchaser,

Did your ex-wife say anything in regards to breaking the marriage covenant? Did she have any guilt or remorse for doing so?

Like I mentioned before, but what happened to you is very similar to what happened to me. I believe in the end, when the spouse decides they want to end the marriage without seeking God's Healing Hand, they will do things to subvert the marriage and end it.

As a Christian, I could never file for divorce. I made a covenant between her and God and that is a covenant that God does not take lightly. Like you mentioned, treason, it is a treasonous act.

My ex-wife was not easy to live with but I still loved her, like Christ loved the church. We (Christians) are not easy to deal with but Jesus does not give up on us or divorce us.
No. 94     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 9, 2017 at 4:29 PM     
Peter4 wrote:



Stormchaser,

Did your ex-wife say anything in regards to breaking the marriage covenant? Did she have any guilt or remorse for doing so?




Only what I already mentioned, that of "separating."

I don't think she really realized what she was doing. In her mind, she was 'helping' me to get it together (though in reality it was probably more on the line of punishing me. That's just an opinion - we were already 'separated' in spirit and I really didn't know her mind anymore...if I ever really did).

How do I know this? Statements she made to my kids. They asked her when would daddy be coming back home. She told them maybe 6 months or maybe a year. That of course was part of the lies & deceptions she was engaged in, but this time, I think, it was self-deception (which I will get more into a couple of posts down the line). So she apparently was not thinking of divorce all that much at this stage, not realizing that the spiritual divorce that physical separation brought was real divorce. Instead she bought into the worldly line of thinking that separation was a 'good' tactic in bringing about restoration.

It wasn't, and it didn't.

But daddy never came back, as the problem was not primarily with him (me), the problem was with her - again referencing the title of this thread.

Guilt and remorse on her part? I think it was likely she had some, but she was (and is) a very proud woman, and she would walk a LONG mile before she ever revealed any such characteristics on her part. Even so, one time, and one time only, a little of that escaped. Later on she at one point mentioned to me that I must hate her. My response was no, I did not hate her, but I didn't like her very much. That remains my attitude today.

No. 95     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 9, 2017 at 6:50 PM     
Somewhat marginally related, but as a sort of simile, the current Congressional committee grilling of former FBI head James Comey is revealing that although he was supposedly representing something he wasn't - the top lawman in the land, representing the public as the FBI director - instead we have the apparent reality that he has been a Clinton-fixer, a Clinton operative mainly in position to cover up their crimes.

(There are many youtube videos about this questioning going on right now, but if you check out this video, just the first 5 minutes, you will get the idea...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JevArepjfg)


My point being, just as Comey supposedly was one person - keeper of the law, man of integrity, a good person, in reality he was a scumbag. That is what is coming out on with this Congress grilling going on right now.

In the same general vein of reasoning, my ex-wife seemingly was a great Christian, church attender, Bible reader, loved her husband, etc., yet when examined under the microscope, quite a different person, and yes, in her own way, she turned out to be a scumbag also.

I certainly didn't feel that way about her while we were married, even though I was gradually waking up to the abuses, nor did I feel that way after she committed treason against the marriage and dumped it all, and me, down the drain.

But I finally did wake up.

No. 96     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 10, 2017 at 9:43 AM     
It's the 1 year anniversary of my divorce. I discovered that she was planning her exit and had no plans of reconciling, even though she claimed she was listening to what God wanted her to do. Similar to what your wife did. Yet, the Bible clearly tells us what God wants a spouse to do, she ignored that and did whatever she wanted to do.

During our 12 year marriage, she would say & write me letters that she would "always love me, now and forever" but that was a LIE. For her, love was only a "feeling" something that can be fleeting and gone one minute. TRUE LOVE, as the Bible defines it, is an action and something that one must do, even if the feelings are not there, God COMMANDS us to love one another and to love the spouse, even if we don't "feel like it" we are to love the spouse.

The promises and vows she made back in 2004 were meaningless because she never really meant to keep them. Her words were worthless. Her promises were
worthless.

Ironically, she would sometimes state that she felt like a "bad wife" because she would be mean towards me and not fulfill her duties as a wife. In the end, she fulfilled her own statement and she did become a "bad wife" because she abandoned the marriage and committed treason against her spouse and against God and the marriage covenant. She is and was a bad person. Her final act of abondonement of the marriage vows sealed the fact that she was never a good wife and never a good Christian.

She told me early in our marriage that her father would sometimes mock her when she was young because she never finished anything. She ALWAYS abandoned things half way through. Well, her dad knows her best because she ended up abandoning her marriage, plus her promises, her teaching career, her obligations, her house, her pets, her church, her husband, etc. As the saying goes, she left me holding the bag. She drove away and never looked back and didn't give one single care about doing so. Cold, so cold and cruel.

This all from someone who to this day claims she is a Christian and seeks only God's will and His ways. It's laughable if it wasn't so sad and tragic...


No. 97     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 10, 2017 at 11:52 AM     
Peter4 wrote:



She told me early in our marriage that her father would sometimes mock her when she was young because she never finished anything. She ALWAYS abandoned things half way through. Well, her dad knows her best...



This doesn't strike me that she had such a great father. It seems to me that a loving father, instead of mocking a child, would seek ways to empower her, support her, and help her over her faults.

My ex-wife, even before most of these last days of marriage events, had some puzzling attitudes about things, attitudes that had me suspecting there had been previous abuse in her life growing up. Her parents were pretty steady people, so I didn't really think there was a problem there, and the puzzling attitudes were usually a momentary thing, so I didn't spend much time trying to figure it out. It was only later, after the last days, that some of my previous wonderings about this re-surfaced. I'll probably never know.

You're right, Peter - we seem to have many similar experiences...and pain. I'll tell you this about me - for a good 10 years after the marital split, these events would haunt me every single day, including the pain. It was as if everything had happened yesterday, including the pain.

Now, it doesn't bother me near as much, though documenting things here on this thread has awakened much of that previous pain, almost to the point that I am sorry I created the thread. It is only the fact that the Lord has brought some understandings, some conclusions, that I believe would be helpful, that I am continuing on, plus it is helpful for me personally to write these things down in order to reach the conclusions I will shortly be posting.

At any rate, given that your divorce was only a year ago, I'd strongly suggest you doing something that I didn't, and that is to find a divorce-recovery group to help you with the pain.

I wish that I had done so.
No. 98     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 11, 2017 at 5:01 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

My ex-wife, even before most of these last days of marriage events, had some puzzling attitudes about things, attitudes that had me suspecting there had been previous abuse in her life growing up. Her parents were pretty steady people, so I didn't really think there was a problem there, and the puzzling attitudes were usually a momentary thing, so I didn't spend much time trying to figure it out. It was only later, after the last days, that some of my previous wonderings about this re-surfaced. I'll probably never know.

You're right, Peter - we seem to have many similar experiences...and pain. I'll tell you this about me - for a good 10 years after the marital split, these events would haunt me every single day, including the pain. It was as if everything had happened yesterday, including the pain.

Now, it doesn't bother me near as much, though documenting things here on this thread has awakened much of that previous pain, almost to the point that I am sorry I created the thread. It is only the fact that the Lord has brought some understandings, some conclusions, that I believe would be helpful, that I am continuing on, plus it is helpful for me personally to write these things down in order to reach the conclusions I will shortly be posting.

At any rate, given that your divorce was only a year ago, I'd strongly suggest you doing something that I didn't, and that is to find a divorce-recovery group to help you with the pain.

I wish that I had done so.


My ex-wife and her father had a rift back then but they then rekindled their relationship during my marriage. He was a good father but I believe he was a bit to the point & harsh when it came to her when she was growing up. She was not easy to deal with when she was a teenager and young adult so he probably said somethings that made her resent him. My ex-wife would remember something someone said, even 10+ years ago, and then hold it against them a decade later. Trust me, I know, she did the same thing to me.

Yes, the pain is still there and some days are better than others. Like you experienced and stated, it's the betrayal, lies and manipulation that brings pain. She was my spouse, she swore a martial oath, she claimed she loved me and would be with me for the rest of our lives. She lied and betrayed all of those things. That causes great pain.

12 years was a long time for me. We went through a lot and she put me through a lot of painful things but I stayed loyal and loving to her. I wasn't perfect, no spouse is, but I was honest, loyal, loving, caring, and
loved her like Christ loves the Church.

Not in my wildest dreams did I think she would leave and divorce me. Especially since we didn't fight and I did nothing wrong to be deserving of a divorce. It was all a big shock and came out of nowhere. That's why it's hard to understand and digest it. If I was a bad husband, then it would be easier to understand, but I wasn't a bad husband. I was a very good, loving and caring husband.

I did and have gone through counseling. All my counselors came to the same conclusion. What my wife did to me was atrocious, hateful and completely ungodly and un-Biblical. That's why she refused counseling with a pastor because they would confirm that and she didn't want to hear that. She only wanted to hear what she wanted to hear. She created a false narrative and found an audience that would listen to it and find sympathy and push her towards divorce, not Godly reconciliation.

The last year of my life was the HARDEST year in my entire life. Only by God's Grace did He see me through it. God is good.
No. 99     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 11, 2017 at 6:39 PM     
A review of the Biblical doctrine of church discipline would be valuable for this next section.

In Matt.18, Jesus gives us a four-step pattern to follow:

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


Step One

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother

Step Two

16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Step Three

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

Step Four

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What happens when believers or a church perverts this order? What happens when human manipulation attempts to corrupt scriptural principle?

Read on to find out...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Ambush

This next event happened more or less concurrently with the meetings described earlier with the professional counselor. Unfortunately the events happened far enough back in the past (and I have moved on) that things are a little jumbled for me but I will do the best I can. I have a clear memory of the actual abuses, only the order of events is a little muddled.

My wife came to me and said, "Let's sit down and work this thing out. You list down what you think is wrong with the marriage, and I'll do the same, and then let's get together and work it out." This is, of course, almost the same approach she used to persuade me to join her in counseling (post #91), very close to being word-for-word, and this fact only occured to me for the VERY FIRST TIME now, as I am typing this. (God continues to teach me.)

You may have picked up on that this proposed meeting is actually a version of STEP ONE from Matt. 18 listed above.

Well good on her, you might be saying to yourself, that is what she should be doing, and I was in agreement with that sentiment at the time. As when she used the same approach to persuade me to attend counseling with her, I was overjoyed that we finally we were going to sit down and work this thing out.

But I was just a wee bit suspicious (and if you've read the previous posts about this you can understand why), and so I asked her point blank, "You mean just you and I getting together to talk this over?" She said, "Yes."

So we set a time for our STEP ONE discussion. I prepared my list, just like I had worked on the homework from the counselor previously, but just like that event, she had deceived me again. She had no list, even though she herself had suggested (like last time) we individually create one.

So comes the appointed time to meet. I am ready with my list. She comes home from work using her flex time to do so. I wait patiently for her to do whatever she is doing upon initial arrival at home.

But curiously, she is not settling down in the living room with me to begin our discussion. I said something like, "What's going on?" but she only replied with some innocuous reply.

Then comes a ring of the doorbell.

Two men, leaders from her church, are at the door (I knew these two men and recognized them). She lets them in, and they come in and sit down near me in the living room. They begin speaking to me, telling me of how my wife had come to them about the marital problems and they were there to 'help.'

Frankly, I'm not sure of all they said, for once again she had SHOCKED me. I can't even say I was aware that the Matt. 18 process had just been corrupted, with STEP TWO replacing STEP ONE in order.

I had just been ambushed, and just like if one is in a bank and someone comes in with a gun and threatens oneself, the SHOCK was total.

She had approached me with an olive branch, but instead brought out the guns, totally unexpected, a total deception.

I said something like, "What is this? You told me were going to meet just the two of us together?" She responded, "No, I said you and I were going to be meeting," as if that justified the lie, and a direct lie it was indeed, for I had been very clear in my earlier suspicious question to her that it was going to be just the two of us, and she had agreed.

Moiving on - I walked out out of the room, overcome with emotion at the (ANOTHER) betrayal, and went to the kitchen, where I began to put on my shoes and socks. Her two feckless clones followed me into the kitchen, obviously intent on continuing the confrontation. As I put on my shoes and socks, I described to them how I had been lied to, and then I left the house.

I returned a few hours later to an empty house, but a message from my wife on the answering machine. That message, as word-for-word as I can pull them out, burned into my memory, was, "Don, I'm sorry for the deception (no mentioning the outright lie), but it was God's will."

"God's will"? What? The lie? All the deception? Taking the steps of Matt. 18 out of order, therefore corrupting the whole process? What?


There's more to this particular event, but let's stop for a moment for any reactions from YOU. Reflect upon what this paragon of virtue just said. Any reactions?
No. 100     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 12, 2017 at 11:29 AM     
Peter4 wrote:

My ex-wife would remember something someone said, even 10+ years ago, and then hold it against them a decade later. Trust me, I know, she did the same thing to me.


Women seem to excel at remembering the slightest details. My wife certainly could outshine me in this regard. But there are some things that happen to men that can be burned into their memories, their conscience. Grievous things. In my case, esp. with no repentance on her part, those things were a significant factor against any sort of Godly reconciliation, let alone a marital reconciliation.


Not in my wildest dreams did I think she would leave and divorce me. Especially since we didn't fight and I did nothing wrong to be deserving of a divorce. It was all a big shock and came out of nowhere.


In my case I 'knew' 'K' would never leave me or divorce. Knowing her, it was simply unthinkable. 'I' would leave before she did, and I knew I would never leave.

Boy was I surprised.
No. 101     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 12, 2017 at 5:42 PM     
The Ambush, as described previously, was a sort of despicable act, but there is another, related act that stands alongside it.

I mentioned that when The Ambush happened, I walked out of the house.

Everyday, I would pick up our kids from school, as my work schedule allowed that much easier than my wife’s did. So when I left the house, and at the proper time for picking the kids up, I was there, waiting in my car as I did everyday.

Kids began exiting the school, many of them looking for their parents’ cars for the ride home, and I waited for my own kids to appear.

They didn’t.

I waited, and waited, and waited. Finally, I was alone, the last car there waiting.

I went into the school, looking for my kids. I asked many teachers, but no one knew a thing. I was starting to get desperate, considering calling the police.

Finally I found one teacher who said she thought the kid’s mother had come to pick them up.

At that point I didn’t know what to do. But I ended up returning home, accessing the answering machine, hoping to hear something from my wife about the missing kids. Instead, I got the “it’s God’s will” message I previously described.

So I waited.

My wife showed up maybe an hour or so later, without the kids. She told me that yes, she had picked them up and then dropped them off at her sister’s before returning to work.

Very consternated, I asked her why she had done so when she knew I was to be waiting for them.

Her answer was that due to our meeting she did not know how I would react and she felt in necessary to pick up the kids herself. She had shown up, parking on a different street than me so I wouldn't see her, and went into the school to get the kids, and getting away while I was patiently waiting for them, in vain.

So apparently she was fearful that I would go off the tracks, blowing up, or something similar.

Let’s take a good look at this. We had been married 18 yrs. Throughout that whole time, I had NEVER blown up about ANYTHING. I am a very placid, unruffled type of guy, even when faced with stressful situations. SHE KNEW THIS.

Yet she reacted with fear, apparently. Expecting a reaction when confronted with her ungodly ambush.

Well I did have a reaction – a typical man’s reaction to their wives foibles or often stronger stress confrontations…I walked out…I shut down. That is how we men often react, and she had seen it before.

So why did she do what she did?

The reality is, I believe, she was just covering bases – a sort of just in case scenario. From her point-of-view it was no big deal, just separate the kids, get them out of the way until the dust settled.

So she was really pretty much thinking of herself, the kids being a good excuse for that.

But did she think about me, her husband, sitting at the school waiting for my no-show kids? Did she think about the near-panic she possibly caused me? Did she even consider that I might call the police?

OF COURSE SHE DIDN’T! It was all about her, you see. Her opinions; her fears; her decisions. There was no WE involved, just like much of the marriage, and especially lately as she went into TERMINAL MARRIAGE MODE.

I can't really describe my near-panic, once I realized my children were missing, nowhere to be found, and no one knew what had happened to them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was one more event, but I think you can see it was hardly isolated. Ask yourself what I asked my own self MANY times afterwards – How could a Godly wife do such things, cause such consternation, stress, and pain? Ask yourself that, and then go back and reread this thread’s title. I’m not concluding quite yet, but you should be considering these things.


And maybe you are getting an idea of why the words like "despicable" and "scumbag" were beginning to enter my thoughts, then and now.
No. 102     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 13, 2017 at 12:17 PM     
Now let’s briefly talk about an issue after the marital split, first observing some relevant scriptures:

Lawsuits Against Believers


1 Corinthians 6:

1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers,
6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
7To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud--even your own brothers!
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Soon after we were divorced, the lawsuits began. When she had told me she expected to receive child support, I was in agreement and so I went to my union lawyer to find out what I should be paying. In my state, there is a legal formula, based on the incomes of the parents, that suggests what should be paid. My lawyer told me the amount after I had related our incomes to him.

I then informed my ex-wife what the lawyer had said should be the child support payments. She then said, and I quote, “That sounds about right.”

So I began making the payments, every Friday. It was in June, the weather nice, and I would stop by her new place Friday mornings to drop off a check. The kids were there, on Summer vacation, and it was actually a positive thing for I got to see them (keep in mind that they had suddenly been ripped from my life). The kids already were missing me, and flocked around me when I came.

I made these payments every Friday, without fail. Keep that in mind also.
About 4-6 weeks later, I received a summons to go to court. As it turns out, my (now) ex-wife had consulted an attorney, found out she could possibly squeeze more money from me, and began legal proceedings. If you haven’t read the scriptures above, you should now.

Long story short, she was able to significantly increase the payments legally, to the point that I could no longer afford to live without going into deep debt, which I did.

What is the issue here (besides her own selfishness)? It is disobedience again, disobedience to God’s word.

She suddenly was unhappy with the amount of money she was getting from me, even though she HAD AGREED previously that it was ok. But in the meantime, she got greedy and instead of going to me first, or even other Christians, she went to secular law courts - 1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?

This disobedience continued (a pattern) over the next three years. In that period of time, she took me to court 6 times – an average of once every 6 months – and EVERY TIME WAS ABOUT GETTING MORE MONEY. Let me remind you that she had already taken me to the poor house.

Was it all about money for her? Mostly, I think, though I wouldn’t doubt that psychologically she found it gratifying to bring me down low financially as a punishment for not obeying her when she engaged in her ungodly machinations during the breakup process.

The issue here is not whether or not Christians may go to court, as there are cases when they must, scripturally speaking. No, the real issue here is whether it is appropriate for Godly Christians to, in general, go to the legal system first, before using other means of working out problems between Christian believers.

As we have already seen, being obedient to God’s word was not a priority with her. During the marriage, her husband was not her champion, but rather just an obstruction to be manipulated. After the marriage, the government became her husband, with her lawyer as her champion to obtain for her whatever she desired.

Keep in mind also that I was not contending with her about making child support payments. I found out what I legally SHOULD be paying, and I did so without argument. She never questioned what the union lawyer had suggested, nor did she question the truth of what I had relayed from him. If she had, I would have willingly taken her to him to hear it directly.

Shortly I will begin to share the many things God has taught me through this torrid affair, but here is one of the first things I learned –

There is a New Testament version called the Williams New Testament. It is one of my favorites. When I consulted it to read 1 Cor. 6, here is what it said on verse 7 –

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. To say no more, it is a mark of moral failure among you to have lawsuits at all with one another. Why not rather suffer being wronged? Why not suffer being robbed?”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, obviously she was not about to “suffer being wronged” (even though she wasn’t), or “suffer being robbed.” No, not our little precious ‘believer’. Certainly not HER.

But that’s not why I brought up this verse in Williams. Instead, Williams interprets this as a “moral failure.” I have since found that in one other translation, though others, like at the top of this post, identify it as a “defeat” or somewhat similar language.

I thought about this “moral failure” a lot, and whether it be a moral failure, a defeat, or whatever, it was not a concern for her…at all, and eventually it became the beginning of a new understanding to me of what it means to be a true believer…and a professing one.

(coming...The Wrap-Up)


No. 103     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 12:44 AM     
Stormchaser,

Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry you had to go through with that. Your former wife was acting in the flesh and what she did was sinful, evil and very cruel.

It's mind blowing that supposed Christian wives are acting like this. Shamefully sad
No. 104     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 10:13 AM     
Peter4 wrote:

Stormchaser,

Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry you had to go through with that. Your former wife was acting in the flesh and what she did was sinful, evil and very cruel.

It's mind blowing that supposed Christian wives are acting like this. Shamefully sad


I appreciate the response, Peter, though instead of saying she was acting in the flesh, the conclusion I am obviously headed for is that she was living in the flesh, but more on that later.

And to all, I will say that I've been watching the 'hit' count on this thread, as I was wondering if my forage into an individual 'Christian's' shameful (as Peter alluded to) past might get boring to some, but the hit count has been at a steadily growing number, indicating high interest even though responses have been minimal, which I attribute to people being patient with me as my story enfolded.

Please keep in mind that this thread was not created just for me to get in some cheap shots against my ex-wife, where she will most likely not even be aware of them. If that were the case, there are more incidents, many more, that I could relate. The idea here, however, is to give an actual set of circumstances that might lead to a conclusion that fits the thread's title, "If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?" If it was merely a sour grapes thread, I wouldn't have done it as it has caused a revival of much pain, and even my sleeping patterns have been affected.

Alright then, I do believe the what has been sufficiently covered, and we will now move into the why and the things the Lord has spoken to me of the situation over the years since.

But first an interlude in the next post, which I believe you all will find interesting and informative...
No. 105     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 11:49 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:


Please keep in mind that this thread was not created just for me to get in some cheap shots against my ex-wife, where she will most likely not even be aware of them. If that were the case, there are more incidents, many more, that I could relate. The idea here, however, is to give an actual set of circumstances that might lead to a conclusion that fits the thread's title, "If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?" If it was merely a sour grapes thread, I wouldn't have done it as it has caused a revival of much pain, and even my sleeping patterns have been affected.



In my case also, my comments and threads about my ex-wife were not meant as cheap shots but to speak out and make it known and try to understand on HOW can a Christian spouse do what she did and divorce.

The act of divorce is just as gregious as the act of adultery. It is the violation of the marriage covenant and vow. Jesus said that a divorced person who then marries again is guilty of adultery as the original divorce was never recognized by God.

Study the Bible and you will see that God refers to marriage in the same terms He refers to the Body of Christ. He calls her the Bride and tells us to love your spouse as Christ loved the church, etc. Now, imagine if Jesus decided to just divorce the Bride, to basically send everyone to hell and never look back. What a devastation that would be as we would all be doomed.

No. 106     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 12:32 PM     

I sure wish all peace and the strength found in forgiveness through all suffering in life.

We are told to Judge righteously when seeing our very Lord so slandered, brutally and abusively beaten and crucified. Although He held the fullness of authority over us ... He sought that we might be forgiven. How powerful is this?

Storm, I don't know your wife and the full circumstances (here we hear what you believe is true and see your suffering for which compassion is held).

I have been very selective and likewise never wed, yet now as I am older, I have fewer options in marriage (I am reluctant to consider, let alone marry any divorced man as for my own observation on marriage/divorces and Biblical truths I hold considering in the Spirit 'marriage' doesn't even exist [it's only between flesh]). It is largely this knowledge that has made me okay with not marrying at all.

For being very selective before this, it was said about me: 'she is looking for Christ Himself.' It felt as manipulation before, but today I say: Amen and Amen. If the Lord's Way is not seen in a man, what purpose would I marry him?

I was engaged to a divorced man in my twenties who convinced me that his wife was an unbeliever and left. One day in Church, his ex attended. I did not only end the relationship, but repented for my ignorance. Perhaps one who leaves a person is a Christian found in sin, but to judge one's ultimate relationship with Christ is done by Christ alone (not us). I can attest to being hurt by Christians in my life, but little more. Look at the Apostles...did they not deny knowing Christ (is this sin)?

The 'greatest' suffering in life I am sure of is being separated from our Lord and it is for this reason we 'build' and 'focus' on Him (He is all about forgiveness).

Praying for peace and joy restored for those who suffer.

Judging another is not the milestone that allows one to arrive there. It is certainly a personal decision if one feels they are able to remarry or not (if that is what this thread is about). That is between the person and God, just as it is when King David was found in sin. Shall any man say, David did not have a heart after God, despite his sin?

We are to judge righteously. I do not see 'sin' being identified as cause to suggest we can read another's love for the Lord and others...even as we suffer at the hands of a murderer (for which I did when loosing my Dad. I had to not only forgive in words, but it needed to be true in my soul until I could heal. It took me years, but Praise the Lord, I am free. Truly free now).

I hope anything I wrote here may resonate 'a tad' of wisdom. May the Lord Bless.

No. 107     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 1:39 PM     
CAsandie wrote:


I sure wish all peace and the strength found in forgiveness through all suffering in life.

We are told to Judge righteously when seeing our very Lord so slandered, brutally and abusively beaten and crucified. Although He held the fullness of authority over us ... He sought that we might be forgiven. How powerful is this?

Storm, I don't know your wife and the full circumstances (here we hear what you believe is true and see your suffering for which compassion is held).

I have been very selective and likewise never wed, yet now as I am older, I have fewer options in marriage (I am reluctant to consider, let alone marry any divorced man as for my own observation on marriage/divorces and Biblical truths I hold considering in the Spirit 'marriage' doesn't even exist [it's only between flesh]). It is largely this knowledge that has made me okay with not marrying at all.

For being very selective before this, it was said about me: 'she is looking for Christ Himself.' It felt as manipulation before, but today I say: Amen and Amen. If the Lord's Way is not seen in a man, what purpose would I marry him?

I was engaged to a divorced man in my twenties who convinced me that his wife was an unbeliever and left. One day in Church, his ex attended. I did not only end the relationship, but repented for my ignorance. Perhaps one who leaves a person is a Christian found in sin, but to judge one's ultimate relationship with Christ is done by Christ alone (not us). I can attest to being hurt by Christians in my life, but little more. Look at the Apostles...did they not deny knowing Christ (is this sin)?

The 'greatest' suffering in life I am sure of is being separated from our Lord and it is for this reason we 'build' and 'focus' on Him (He is all about forgiveness).

Praying for peace and joy restored for those who suffer.

Judging another is not the milestone that allows one to arrive there. It is certainly a personal decision if one feels they are able to remarry or not (if that is what this thread is about). That is between the person and God, just as it is when King David was found in sin. Shall any man say, David did not have a heart after God, despite his sin?

We are to judge righteously. I do not see 'sin' being identified as cause to suggest we can read another's love for the Lord and others...even as we suffer at the hands of a murderer (for which I did when loosing my Dad. I had to not only forgive in words, but it needed to be true in my soul until I could heal. It took me years, but Praise the Lord, I am free. Truly free now).

I hope anything I wrote here may resonate 'a tad' of wisdom. May the Lord Bless.



Just to clarify, this thread is not about divorce, forgiveness, remarriage, singleness or inappopriate judgment. It IS about whether a Godly Christian can divorce a Christian spouse (though it will also address the likely conclusions should that premise be not true).

No. 108     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 2:03 PM     
I was answering the title of this thread, Storm (are they a true Christian).

Unbiblical divorce is an unGodly act (a sin) committed ... on this I agree.


It IS about whether a Godly Christian can divorce a Christian spouse (though it will also address the likely conclusions should that premise be not true).


It's back to being tantalizing then ... (awaiting your conclusion then)!




No. 109     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 2:05 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Storm, I don't know your wife and the full circumstances (here we hear what you believe is true and see your suffering for which compassion is held).



This is a point I will address separately (from my last post), and it is a good one. Additional to what you wrote, Sandie, but probably too gracious to mention, one needs to factor in the possibility that the person giving the testimony is lying, or has the intention to deceive. So you (the reader) must make a determination of whether the person giving the testimony is a liar (does he have a history of it?), or as a person possibly mistaken on some points, or even from the possibility of only hearing one side of the story...

"The one who states his case first seems right,
until the other comes and examines him."
Prov. 18:17

...the ironic thing about this scripture is that when its understanding was not involved, my ex's case against ME also seemed strong - to everyone who only heard one side of it. However, when she faced any sort of possible accountability, whether from the pastor who married us, the professional counselor, etc., she turned tail and ran.

As far as myself, one can either make their own determination of my honesty, ability to evaluate situations, etc., OR merely treat my statements as conditional and go on to address the contention in the OP, rather than get tied down in conditional scenarios.

But one set of FACTS should be considered with greater scrutiny (unless one believes I am lying), and that is THE ACTUAL EVENTS I described. The Ambush actually happened. My ex ACTUALLY lied about it. The school event ACTUALLY happened. Any comments of hers in the preceding posts (quotes of hers are in blue) were described pretty much verbatim. Our pastor's statements to me about her manipulation were actually made to me! The many lawsuits ACTUALLY HAPPENED! There was nothing to get wrong about it. These are irrefutable unless you believe I am an out-and-out liar. And if you think I may be seeing these ACTUAL EVENTS from only a one-sided viewpoint, though it's true enough I do, yet I have described the ACTUAL FACTS and/or EVENTS as they happened, and not as imagined.. If you find any personal opinions of mine in the description of the events, then please remove them and THEN ask yourself if the actions were Godly...or were they self-serving.

No. 110     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 2:58 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

Storm, I don't know your wife and the full circumstances (here we hear what you believe is true and see your suffering for which compassion is held).



This is a point I will address separately (from my last post), and it is a good one. Additional to what you wrote, Sandie, but probably too gracious to mention, one needs to factor in the possibility that the person giving the testimony is lying, or has the intention to deceive. So you (the reader) must make a determination of whether the person giving the testimony is a liar (does he have a history of it?), or as a person possibly mistaken on some points, or even from the possibility of only hearing one side of the story...

"The one who states his case first seems right,
until the other comes and examines him."
Prov. 18:17

...the ironic thing about this scripture is that when its understanding was not involved, my ex's case against ME also seemed strong - to everyone who only heard one side of it. However, when she faced any sort of possible accountability, whether from the pastor who married us, the professional counselor, etc., she turned tail and ran.

As far as myself, one can either make their own determination of my honesty, ability to evaluate situations, etc., OR merely treat my statements as conditional and go on to address the contention in the OP, rather than get tied down in conditional scenarios.

But one set of FACTS should be considered with greater scrutiny (unless one believes I am lying), and that is THE ACTUAL EVENTS I described. The Ambush actually happened. My ex ACTUALLY lied about it. The school event ACTUALLY happened. Any comments of hers in the preceding posts (quotes of hers are in blue) were described pretty much verbatim. Our pastor's statements to me about her manipulation were actually made to me! The many lawsuits ACTUALLY HAPPENED! There was nothing to get wrong about it. These are irrefutable unless you believe I am an out-and-out liar. And if you think I may be seeing these ACTUAL EVENTS from only a one-sided viewpoint, though it's true enough I do, yet I have described the ACTUAL FACTS and/or EVENTS as they happened, and not as imagined.. If you find any personal opinions of mine in the description of the events, then please remove them and THEN ask yourself if the actions were Godly...or were they self-serving.



Storm -- No, I wasn't being gracious at all.

What I said and thought in no way implied any accusation of 'lying.' It is my belief that many times people have different interpretations of things occurring. Usually it remains different when the two quit speaking about it (otherwise left unresolved) or they can not come to an agreement on something. I am certain you are telling the truth that you believe as I stated.

I was just answering the thread title again (I didn't read this entire thread since the last time I posted)...should I duck?

No. 111     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

...should I duck?



Naw, quack all you want! :tongue:
No. 112     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 15, 2017 at 3:13 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

CAsandie wrote:

...should I duck?



Naw, quack all you want! :tongue:


No, that is okay...I think this is one of those situations where the exit is more inviting. :naanaa:

Enjoy your day!

No. 113     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 16, 2017 at 7:03 PM     
------SIDEBAR------

This testimony gets away from the OP a bit, though it is related. More importantly, it addresses some serious problems in the church today (speaking of the traditional church), and those are abuse, pathetic Bible teaching from the pulpit, and poor leadership.

As such, I think it worthwhile to relate the circumstances.

The culprit church in this particular case is my ex’s church and the BIG MESS they made of things.

So let’s begin…

Earlier I described The Ambush, where my ex was successful in corrupting two of her church’s leaders into ignoring some scripture in favor of others. This is a stratagem usually called ‘proof-texting,’ and we’ve seen it here on MC with those who come in with ‘other’ doctrines and conveniently misinterpret scripture in favor of their own agenda.

In this case it wasn’t so much proof-texting as it was merely a case of incompetence. These men were approached by my ex, convinced to participate in The Ambush, and, apparently, NEVER QUESTIONED her as to whether or not she had keep the biblical order of Matt. 18, exhausting the STEP ONE of Matt. 18 first (mentioned in a previous post). Either that, or she lied to them also, which considering it was becoming a common thing to her could very well have happened.

But, also mentioned earlier, THEY FOUND OUT the deception after I described her perfidy to them during The Ambush episode.

To give credit where credit is due, apparently they did listen to me, as when I returned to the empty house later and checked the answering machine, there was a (SORT OF) apology on it from my ex. You can review this event by going back to post #99 if you wish, and I will also be reviewing that answering machine message later, but for the moment let’s just note that there was a response by my ex, and apparently spurred on by these two men speaking to her after I had left.

But apparently chiding her was all the far they were willing to go, NEVER ADDRESSING their own ignorance of the full Matt. 18 principle. How do I know? The very next day one of them called me on the phone, gave a sort of half-apology for “surprising” me, and then proceeded to once again push me into another meeting with them.

This may sound reasonable to some, but consider, if the proper biblical order was to be followed, what they should have done is encouraged my ex and I to go back to STEP ONE and work through the biblical order from there. Why? Because presumably God knows what He is doing when He gives us that order of steps to reconciliation. After all, would you begin with STEP THREE and take the matter to the WHOLE CHURCH before any opportunity to settle the matter privately was taken?

OF COURSE NOT! There's a reason for Biblical order, and when you mess around with it, you have….well…a MESS.

Seemingly, this never occurred to our wonderful church leaders.

So once again my ex’s manipulation, now expanded to church leaders, was a bust.

Let’s cover just one more incident (though like my ex, there were several other violations by this church).

A few years later, after much damage had been done (recall I mentioned about the many lawsuits?), out of the blue, more or less, the present senior pastor of her church contacted the pastor who had married us, and began pushing for what? You may have guessed it…ANOTHER MEETING.

(Slow learners...)

As mentioned, this was years later, pretty much after the dust had settled. My pastor friend told me of the request, and my response was, “Thanks, but no thanks.”

After all, the damage had been done, the dust was settled, and I had had just about enough from these ‘helpers.’

That pastor did not like the response, and began pushing my pastor friend, threatening me that if I didn’t agree to meet, he would recommend my ex to ‘divorce’ in the sight of man (he didn’t call it that, of course, for like most pastors, he really didn’t know scripture all that well.)

My response was the same.

A short time later I received a letter in the mail, a one-page letter of rebuke, essentially of ex-communication, though that term was not used in the text. The letter legitimatized the ‘ex-communication’ solely for the reason I refused to meet with the church leadership.

So let’s break this down a little bit. Their letter essentially proclaimed a STAGE FOUR action (see post #99) against me, legitimatizing their own jump from STAGE TWO, while still ignoring their own skipping of the whole, original STAGE ONE.

And these guys thought themselves as ‘Godly’ leadership. Oh, and here’s another little gem – the letter was signed from the church council. Would you like to know what one of those names of the council was on that letter? That would be the name of my ex’s lawyer, her champion in plundering the man she broke covenant with.

How’s that for conflicting interests?

Needless to say, their letter had no force of conviction from God, and only displayed their own incompetence.

In return, I did respond to their letter with one of my own, a 7-page letter of rebuke (cc'ing a copy to my pastor friend, whom I kept in the loop), carefully documenting their own incompetence from DAY ONE of their involvement, pointing out the corruption of scripture, my ex’s manipulation activities, The Ambush, the conflicting interest of the lawyer’s name on their letter, and much more.

And what do you think these Godly men did after they received my letter of rebuke? Did they engage with me? Did they respond with any sort of defense of their (incompetent) actions? Did they do anything???

No, they did not. Total silence.

As silent as they were when my ex broke with me about the leading to a new church, which was NOT them, and she decided it was appropriate to not stick with her husband (post #85).

As mentioned, there was more – more incompetence, more corruption, just…more. But you have seen enough, I think.

Interesting enough, part of their church name, Berean, was a name taken from scripture of a church that was very careful of adhering to God’s Word. Quite a joke, isn't it?

One final interesting tidbit – a year later after thus latest action, this church with the noble Berean name was dashed to the ground by the Lord, it’s leadership scattered to the four winds, along with quite a bit of its membership similarly scattered (about 2/3rds gone from reports), it’s legal name of ‘Berean’ legally destroyed.

Today the building is still there, a remnant of the membership left, a whole new name and leadership, and of course my ex still attends.

It would be gratifying to my ego to think or say God took them down for the destruction they helped rein down on my marriage, but the most probable truth of the matter is that if they helped to abuse my marriage, they likely were party to many other abuses to many other people because of their incompetence. And like those churches in the Book of Revelation, God had something to say to them, in a most definite way.

I’m not suggesting that these so-called men of God were part of what I am suggesting in the title of this thread. I do believe they are Christian, how Godly you may judge for yourself, but I do think it very instructive to see the consequences of not knowing scripture yourself, as most pastors have a horrible track record of it.

Fortunately, by the time of the letter of ex-communication, I had done my homework, knew of the relevant scriptures, and, I believe, the Lord guided and heard my rebuke.

My next post (other than possible responses to comments), will take the thread in a different direction, covering the whys now that the whats have been addressed.


No. 114     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 18, 2017 at 8:53 PM     
Towards An Understanding

We are now entering a phase of attempting to psychoanalyze an individual’s actions and make sense of them. Psychoanalyze means investigate, and you will now see the results of my own investigation over the years, buttressed by God’s guidance.

Previously I used terms like STEP ONE, referring to the Matt. 18 process of reconciliation. To differentiate from that, I will, for this stage, use PHASE ONE, TWO, and so forth.

PHASE ONE


The first phase of my own post-marital understanding, which lasted for approx. 10 yrs. -10 yrs. of pain and suffering and the gradual rise of understanding from that. Let’s look at a timeline:

1998 – Destruction of marriage
1998–2008 – PHASE ONE - Decade of bewilderment, suffering, growing desire to understand.

After the obvious planned destruction of the marriage unless a total capitulation on my part, I developed a strong interest in the whole concept of marriage and divorce.

1999- found Meet Christians

When I first found MC, I joined in the many discussions, and some of them revolved around marriage and divorce. In the course of those discussions, a Christian sister suggested a book to me that I might want to acquire. This same book I have many times in the past recommended to many of you, though unlike myself, who got the book, no one has ever mentioned to me that they did the same.

Too bad, as it is an awesome book.

Here it is:



From the Publisher

"This is the book that many pastors, counselors, and theologians consider to be the most biblical and the most helpful on the issue of marriage and divorce. If the church is going to use the Bible to decide whether divorce is legitimate in certain cases and whether divorced people have the right to remarry with the approval and blessing of God's people, then the Bible must be studied without prejudice toward a particular answer.

The author examines the relevant passages in both the Old and New Testaments so that his readers can consider the many issues and interpretations that arise in trying to establish a consistently biblical position. As a result, readers can see more clearly and accept more firmly the truth of Scripture.

The book succeeds at being exactly what the author wanted it to be: "a comprehensive, lucid, accurate study presented in a readable and practical style." It is a valuable resource for the pastor, the counselor, and the church leader, as well as other individuals who are struggling to understand and apply scriptural principles to the problems of divorce and remarriage."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This small book contains a wonderful understanding and definition of what marriage really is. It really helped me to not only biblically define marriage, but also helped me to see just how far off the beam my ex had crossed.

The book's author is Dr. Jay Adams. Incidentally, Jay Adams has another wonderful book that helped shape my previously stated views of Matt. 18. That book is:



Essentially I learned or relearned that marriage is a covenant of companionship, is to be lifelong, and that there responsibilities and obligations in marriage. I am sure anyone reading this will know what many of those are, and just based on what you have read of my spouse's actions previously, you certainly have a good idea of how she failed, but I can tell you if you read these books, you will even get a better idea of how far off she was - how she redefined those responsibilities and obligations as a strictly ONE-WAY street, all heading her way.

So that's PHASE ONE. Not really going to spend a lot of time on it, and I hope to also keep the following PHASES as short as possible also.

No. 115     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 19, 2017 at 9:49 PM     
1998 – Destruction of marriage
1998–2008 – PHASE ONE - Covenant Understanding - Decade of bewilderment, suffering, growing desire to understand.
2012-13 (approx.) - PHASE TWO - Obsession
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHASE TWO

PHASE TWO was a real breakthrough for me. One of my favorite Christian authors and theologians from way back in the 70's was the Chinese theologian Watchman Nee.

One of his many works is entitled, SPIRITUAL REALITY OR OBSESSION. With my marital destruction in mind, I began re-reading this book and it was AMAZING how much it revealed about my ex's state-of-mind.



Here are some passages from it -

“Spiritual reality is trueness. It is the truth which sets us free. Oftentimes a Christian fails to touch trueness and falls into falsehood instead. He is deceived and bound by falsehood. He does not clearly see that true character of a thing: yet he considers himself clear. What he thinks and does is wrong, but he reckons himself to be most right. Such a condition we call “obsession.” The obsessed person needs the light of God; otherwise he will not be able to come out of his obsession. Let us now see what obsession is.

Obsession is self-deception. 1 John 1:8 describes an obsessed person, declaring him to be self-deceived. If a person knows he has sinned but nevertheless tells others he has not, it is a lie. But if has sinned and yet believes himself to have not sin, it is self-deception. A lie is committed when one knows in himself that he has sinned but he tells others that he has not. An obsession is evident when one has sinned and yet he thinks so well of himself that he believes himself to be sinless as the Lord Jesus. A liar knows his sin but tries to deceive others. An obsessed person, though he himself has sin, believes and tells other that he has no sin. In other words, what deceives others is a lie, while that which deceives oneself is an obsession.”

“Many of those who are proud are obsessed!”

“Obsession is a matter of the heart. When the obsessed does something wrong, his heart insists that he is right. If a person commits wrong and asserts he is right, he is lying. But if he commits wrong and yet affirms with his mouth and believe in his heart that he is right, he is obsessed. A liar is hard without but withered up within: the more confident outwardly the more empty inwardly he becomes. An obsessed person is hard both inside and outside, being confident both within and without; for even the conscience seems to justify it.

“The situation of the obsessed is such that having done something wrong, he nonetheless thinks and firmly believes the thing done to be right so that no one can tell him it is wrong. This is obsession.“


You may recall I previously shared my ex's statements of how I myself was "100% wrong" in the marriage. Can that even be true for anyone??? Yet when I read Nee's book, it became much clearer how her thought processes had become obsessed, deceiving, and even spiritually sick.

Through some additional research, I was able to put together a realization that for her (as many), it was more important to be RIGHT, then for the marriage to be healed. It was more important to be RIGHT, then for everyone, including our children, to have a win-win. And it was more important to be RIGHT, then it was to be RIGHTEOUS.

Understanding her spiritual obsession problems enabled me to answer many questions as to how an apparent 'Godly' Christian could screw up her marriage to the point it imploded.
No. 116     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 20, 2017 at 1:10 PM     
Leaving on a 1 week vacation in a couple of days, but should have time to finish up with PHASE THREE and PHASE FOUR, which will complete the phases of understanding God has given me.

I'll be going to my CONCLUSION after I return. If any comments come in between then and now, I will have very limited internet access while camping up in Michigan's North Woods, and so may not be able to respond until I return from vacation.
No. 117     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Kari   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 20, 2017 at 1:34 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Leaving on a 1 week vacation in a couple of days, but should have time to finish up with PHASE THREE and PHASE FOUR, which will complete the phases of understanding God has given me.

I'll be going to my CONCLUSION after I return. If any comments come in between then and now, I will have very limited internet access while camping up in Michigan's North Woods, and so may not be able to respond until I return from vacation.


enjoy your vacation.
No. 118     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 20, 2017 at 9:20 PM     
Kari wrote:



enjoy your vacation.


Thank you. Going here -



Should get some great shots.
No. 119     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jun 20, 2017 at 11:01 PM     
So glad to see where you are going, Storm! May the Lord Bless your vacation and fellowships made!



No. 120     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jun 20, 2017 at 11:25 PM     
Stormchaser,

During my wife's separation. I sent her and pleaded with her to read "Sacred Marriage" by Gary Thomas. She refused to read it and stated that she was "too busy" to read the book.

This goes hand in hand with what your ex-wife's state of mind was. Neither your wife or my wife had any intention or will to have God heal the marriage. Their minds were made up and they were not seeking Godly counseling.


No. 121     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 22, 2017 at 12:29 PM     
Sorry, had some problems with my RV's electronics (after sitting unused 2 yrs) and got behind on this thread. PHASE THREE & FOUR will have to wait until I return from vacation.
No. 122     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jun 26, 2017 at 9:32 PM     
Hey gang, vacationing on Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Limited wifi and its been raining gangbusters, but I gotta' tell you what...LOTS if information to be added to my PHASE FOUR when I get to it.

As mentioned earlier, God is still teaching me things and boy has He made some great new material available to me. Be back home in a few days to add more to this thread.
No. 123     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 2, 2017 at 9:58 PM     
Sometimes things happen. They happen for reasons. Sometimes God puts people in our Lives and than he takes them out of our lives. Sometimes we make wrong choices. We get married for the wrong reasons and divorced for the wrong reasons. God was and is the creator of marriage. He doesn't like divorce. Divorce doesn't come suddenly. When we quit to love one another. When we quit with communication. When did we quit to work in our Marriage. Marriage takes work . Everyday. So it takes two people to get married and two people to get divorced.
Lets go into the biblical aspect . When God created Eve He took a rib from Adam and than brought back to him Eve. Now God wanted them to become one, which happen to the rib came back to Adam in form of Eve and he was complete again. So when we get married we become whole again That is why God doesn't like Divorce. We make us un whole. . Is He a forgiving God . Yes He is. He still loves us and through Yeshuah's blood we are forgiven. So It is also important that we forgive those who hurt us. May be there still hope. It might sounds silly , but for God is nothing impossible. Even a Marriage which fell apart . He can heal everything. May God will give you the enlightening and insight for both of you and make you whole again.
No. 124     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 3, 2017 at 10:21 AM     
Hi Tulip! Nice to see you post.

Tulip427 wrote: Sometimes things happen.


This is very true. Infants die in tragic accidents or are murdered and we try our best to seek wisdom when bad things occur.

They happen for reasons. Sometimes God puts people in our Lives and than he takes them out of our lives. Sometimes we make wrong choices. We get married for the wrong reasons and divorced for the wrong reasons.


God was and is the creator of marriage.


I agree again. I'm old, so have witnessed many divorces and I always see a pattern: hurt.

We had a sermon at my Church on marriage recently that encapsulated my own beliefs fully: we might chose who we marry, but marriage is an institution that belongs to God and is His. Two becoming 'one' is work for humans in understanding the two are separate beings that need to stay tuned into the other's needs, mental and physical health, desires and foremost: tuned into God. So often with children and responsibilities we find that going to Church together/Bible Study time, Praying together (the most important things in a marriage) can be put on hold and this in itself results in a disunion (if remembering it is God that we live, unite and hold our joy through, peace and He provides the harmony in our lives, protection and has taught us 'accurate' love [a verb]). Before worrying about the bills, one should worry if the Lord is in the forefront all of things experienced in life.

Financial or Control struggles and the world, mental health problems, physical ailments can all erode a marriage if we are not mindful to ensure 'GOD HIMSELF' is the forefront of a marriage.

He doesn't like divorce. Divorce doesn't come suddenly. When we quit to love one another. When we quit with communication. When did we quit to work in our Marriage. Marriage takes work . Everyday. So it takes two people to get married and two people to get divorced.


More Truth. If I were not raised Christian and I did not know the Lord hates divorce...I'd still hate divorce for the reasoning I provide above (it causes such a deep hurt/pain and suffering). Bad is bad ... no matter what the summation and divorce is a deep hurt for both (therefore bad).

Lets go into the biblical aspect . When God created Eve He took a rib from Adam and than brought back to him Eve. Now God wanted them to become one, which happen to the rib came back to Adam in form of Eve and he was complete again. So when we get married we become whole again That is why God doesn't like Divorce. We make us un whole. . Is He a forgiving God . Yes He is. He still loves us and through Yeshuah's blood we are forgiven. So It is also important that we forgive those who hurt us. May be there still hope. It might sounds silly , but for God is nothing impossible. Even a Marriage which fell apart . He can heal everything. May God will give you the enlightening and insight for both of you and make you whole again.


The word Holy in Latin is Sanctus. While agreeing in principle, before marriage was God and Man ... our saving Union that is needed moreso than anything else in which to be 'whole' and for all other things such as marriage to be 'whole.' Recall, there is no marrying in Heaven, so it is never marriage that makes us or breaks us, but our disunion or union in Christ that does. The marriage itself though is made 'whole' by our focus 'in marriage' upon the Lord (marriage is His creation).

So many in life, I witness 'wait' until tragedy happens before they reach out to the Lord. Is it too late at this point? Only the Lord knows. The Lord 'nurtures' a marriage in all ways and again should be the forefront 'always.' I suspect that even Christian counseling might fail if the couple did not pray together and place Christ as 'their reason for being on this planet' at the forefront of every disagreement, every joy and in prayer together before the sun could go down on a couple's anger.

my two cents, fwiw. I appreciated your post here, Tulip.



No. 125     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 3, 2017 at 9:41 PM     
Tulip427 wrote:

Lets go into the biblical aspect.


Good idea!


Some biblical problems with the way you have structured this, Tulip. But before I start addressing that I am going to assume your statement, "May be there still hope" is a typo, and should have been, "Maybe there is still hope." If that is incorrect, please let me know.



So let's get into biblical interpretation.

You said, "He still loves us and through Yeshuah's blood we are forgiven." That is true.

"So It is also important that we forgive those who hurt us. May be there is still hope."

As you used the word "so" as a conjunction*, your use pulls the two statements together -

He still loves us and through Yeshuah's blood we are forgiven

SO (meaning therefore)

It is also important that we forgive those who hurt us

- thus giving the idea that because we have been forgiven through Yeshua's blood, we should automatically extend forgiveness to anyone who hurts us or offends us.

This is not biblically true. Yes, there is a sense we should not hold bitterness in our hearts when wronged, but that is an internal heart decision. But scripture makes a case that forgiveness should be withheld when a person sins against you until he repents, and then and only then do you forgive him.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." Luke 17:3-4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are not told to automatically extend forgiveness to a sinner just because 'there still might be hope.' It is similar to disciplining a child. A child does something wrong. We let him get away with it. Does he learn anything with that sort of philosophy?

No, he doesn't. He will commit the wrongdoing again, as it suits him. He needs to be disciplined (rebuked). He needs to experience sorrow and repent of his wrongdoing.

You don't heal a marriage by rubber-stamping sinful actions.

Sorry if I appear to be quibbling, but this is important, I think.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* 2. Conjunction

Another common usage of the word “so” is as a conjunction that also means “therefore.” When used as a conjunction, this word usually connects together two clauses to form a single sentence. In the sample sentence below:

It was still painful, so I went to the doctor.

The word “so” acts as a conjunction that links together the clauses “it was still painful” and “I went to the doctor.”
No. 126     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 3, 2017 at 10:37 PM     
Warning: Grammar police


Storm -- there might be Scriptural challenge on the matter of forgiveness whether one repents or not. When Christ was crucified, despite his innocence, did those doing the greatest of sins recorded in history...repent? What did Christ do? (prayed for their forgiveness as our Lord even though no repentance existed).

Forgiveness leads to peace not just for the other, but for one's self.

Mark 11:25 And when you stand to pray, if you hold anything against another, forgive it, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your trespasses as well.”

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Colossians 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

In Luke it prefaces, Luke 17:1 And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. 3Pay attention to yourselves!

'so' it is instruction for the Brethren and 'us' and Brethren are told to repent. The rest of the world may or may nor repent.

I will be honest that I am not certain on this though. I once heard a rather convincing sermon on the requirement of repentance for forgiveness (yet it didn't stick with me as my soul desires to forgive and not hold on to hurt). The Bible clearly instructs us in 'reconciliation' between Brethren (just as not going to the alter to offer a gift prior to making up with one's brother).

"YET -- there are cases of no reconciliation possible due to the other's refusal. In those cases should we carry hurt, bitterness, sorrow and if so...how long? We know it would not be eternally. And to whose benefit? All things allowable, but not all things are beneficial.

I am certain though that we will not always receive an apology for the harm done to us in life and holding anger, resentment or hurt ... hurts us more than the other. It doesn't 'free' us from the wrong done against us that is truly between the Lord and the other person in the end (not us).

Thanks for allowing my thoughts on this. Happy Independence Day!

(btw -- I am not typing for a grade on MC -- so if typos exist, please forgive me)!




No. 127     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 3, 2017 at 11:46 PM     
Thank you for your input, Sandie. I, like you, do not pretend to have the whole answer on this subject - it is only that I see Christians preaching only one viewpoint of this to the point of ignoring other scriptures.

I'll take a closer look at your scriptures, as the important thing is seeking God's truth, not Stormchaser's talking points.

In the meantime, here is a passage I found that might engender some further thought for yourself and any others who wonder about this issue...

"The Bible tells us to forgive as God forgave us (Ephesians 4:32, Colossians 3:13).God forgives us when we come to him, confess our sin, ask for forgiveness (apologize) and repent (turn from our sinful ways).( Ezekiel 33:10-19, Isaiah 55:6, Jeremiah 6:16 & 26:3, Luke 13:3 & 5, Acts 3:19). He does not forgive those who are 'stiff-necked', continue doing evil, or refuse to repent. The Lord does not expect more of us than he himself is willing to do! Do we imagine ourselves to be holier than God? God requires repentance, and so must we."

And a thought just occurred to me about this latest passage - if we have a religion that is too easy, with no repentance required, then our faith has no more power than that of the Universalists', who also do not require repentance.
No. 128     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 11:44 AM     
Storm! Yes!! that is the 'very' message in the sermon that I sat through (at a local Church I attended) that was rather convincing!! To be sure...the way the Pastor presented it though, caused a realization in my own soul that we "MUST" repent no matter how 'righteous' we think we are in a situation.

God will take care of what another does (not us lest we draw swords ourselves). There is an 'eternal' perspective put inside my soul (I look beyond a wrong to it's ending). I could have learned this when taking legal courses (the professor told us to drop all emotions and look at the other side and the ending of a case when preparing a case for trial). The ending for those who live in sin...it's not too good (then compassion fills my soul). This might cause me to appear passive-digressive or standing on the fence to those who are wrapped up in the battle at times...

Ephesians 6:12 has largely impacted how I battle though: 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.

"So" for me to reconcile scriptures, I asked what hurt shall I hold on to? What wrong shall I dwell in that I did not commit? It just doesn't 'fit' inside of me, personally -- I have to forgive (it is a force inside me that I have to love even when it seems impossible, for example in the case of my Dad's murderer). I asked the Lord to make my prayers for this soul...'heart felt' (I prayed in the beginning as instructed, but they were empty). So it came. I awoke and saw clearly. My Dad loved the Lord. The soul taking the life of my beloved Dad ... did not have the Lord. Despite my own pain -- who was in a worse position as far as life? (again, from the Lord's or an eternal perspective).

I also questioned my 'faith' and 'trust' in the Lord at this moment. Justice will always occur for His ... but it will be by better hands than my own. Peace then was restored. This is my personal testimony though...

I look upon God as a "Just" Judge with all certainty. Are we though when we resent another, hold anger and even hate? I think it's make us unjust myself (such things just appear evil to me).

As well it can be said, I see cause that Children must learn, but the Lord knows all...and is able to read the hearts of all. Can we? I personally see this life as a 'fitness' test for the Lord's Kingdom. If we focus on others too much or the wrong in life, we fail to focus on Him and His 'good' news.

So Christ upon the earth came as 'flesh' and taught us as we are.... 'flesh,' so that we might learn and he instructed those 'without' sin to throw the first rock.

He is without sin though, but threw no stone. To me that is the differences I see, but again, I could be wrong. This is strongly imprinted in my heart though when weighing what is beneficial for man:

1 Cor 1313 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

As well, I must say for me personally, those I have forgiven [whether they deserved it or not] have in time blessed me so richly with not just respect, but a 'sincerity' that we don't always receive. So I treasure forgiveness so very high in that it builds indestructible bonds I believe between people (so where marriage fail...a friendship might not). My parents loved one another until death, albeit divorced and it was not just for us children (but to their advantage). A great side discussion Storm (sorry if I have a lot of thought ... again no certainty and for the most part what I personally 'must' do [it doesn't seem a choice in my life]. I can't sleep well until I forgive. Yet, many in my real world though say I am 'far' too forgiving.

Thanks for a great side discussion here though! I've enjoyed it and I just have to give you a respect filled hug for this, Teardrop camper man! :hug:

I also hope on the OP that it might help another in addressing hurt (which is the end result when a spouse walks out on a marriage. The devastation can heal through Christ's love and focus on His Kingdom...(some say time. I say Christ).



No. 129     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 4:14 PM     
I wasn't preaching. I was sharing my thoughts to the subject. And yes Forgiveness Is one act of Love which Yeshuah demanded us to do. He even forgave those , who put him on the cross. The ones He forgave didn't repent. Love is unconditional. You make a conditional Love out of it, by saying "You have to repent first, than I forgive you. " No it is , I forgive you , because I'll love you. I am divorced , I still Love my former husband I don't have to like what he did, still I can love him ,So does our Father in heaven , He doesn't like what we are doing , still he loves us. Remember , He doesn't like divorces either, though he still loves us. Yeshuah taught us not to judge. So that we are not be judged. It takes two people to get married and two people to get divorced. Each of the two people are responsible for at least half of a divorce.When there is an action , there is also a reaction. When one of the two people who are married run of and want a divorce than it has something to do with an action from the partner. Don't forget we are Humans not Saints. We act like Humans , and believe me God loves us all . He made us , We are His children and we err
No. 130     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 5:15 PM     
Tulip427 wrote:

I wasn't preaching. I was sharing my thoughts to the subject. And yes Forgiveness Is one act of Love which Yeshuah demanded us to do. He even forgave those , who put him on the cross. The ones He forgave didn't repent.




Ultimately, who does God forgive, Tulip? Does He forgive everyone and give an automatic pass to heaven, as the Universalist on our site claims?

I appreciate the fact that you have your own thoughts on the subject, Tulip, and I like some things you said earlier, but one thing both you and CAsandie have ignored is the scripture I brought up (Luke 17:3). CAsandie instead posted other verses (and I'm glad she did) and you post your opinion, but I'd still like to hear how both of you reconcile Luke 17:3 into your theology.

For too long too many Christians have reviled Universalism, yet when it comes right down to it, they sound just like them at times when push comes to shove. God has a dual nature, of which love and mercy is one part, and justice and judgment is the other. If you only "preach" one side of that nature, you only preach half of whom God is (and you may sound like a Universalist). Until you can reconcile both sides of His nature, your theology is incomplete for your understanding of God is incomplete.
No. 131     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 6:06 PM     
I have a question . Do you believe in Yeshuah or what Luke wrote. I believe in Yeshuah He gave us two more commandments, The one :Love one another : and the other: Love your enemies as yourself. " There is nothing of repentance in His words. When asked , How many times should I forgive, Yeshuah answered 70 times 7. Not 7 times 7. Yeshuah also said : he who believes in me will be saved. God's love for us is so great that He put His only son upon the cross, for our sins, God is the Creator of Love. The greatest gift is Love. We talked about How much God Loves us. Do we Love him also? . Do we try to keep His Commandments? Do we put Him first in our lives? Do we worship Him and Honor and respect Him as our Father? Do we say Thanks for every morning when we waken up and find us still alive? God forgives us . We can not follow the commandments 100% So we aren't perfect. If we would be. Yeshuah's Death would be for nothing. So we failed. We failed in our responsibility against our kids, against our partners, against our boss, and so on. If we couldn't forgive us ourselves, God can not forgive us either. So we have to have it in our hearts to forgive so that we can be forgiven.
No. 132     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 6:42 PM     
Tulip427 wrote:

I have a question . Do you believe in Yeshuah or what Luke wrote.


It seems you have more than just a question - it now appears you have serious biblical conflicts and have apparently been influenced by spiritual counterfeits. Maybe I wasn't that far off when I suggested your statements were close to Universalism.

Why do I say that?

By your quote above, you have just defined a difference between God ("Yeshuah") and God's Word ("what Luke wrote"). That is a trick that the cults use and, apparently, now you.

God and His Word are not different - they are one and the same...except to those who follow spiritual counterfeit cults and the like.

Would you like to share with us all what type of church you fellowship with? And if it is an evangelical church, maybe you can tell us why you are preaching another gospel?

I don't really wish to give you a hard time, Tulip, but as it now appears, you have some serious doctrinal issues that could affect your eternal life.



No. 133     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 7:07 PM     

Storm, As you know, Christians have no power of life and death (only God), so there is no Universalism in human forgiveness. We are subjects of His covenant with us. I don't view love as unconditional or conditional (in human form it either is or is not and is an 'action'). I did address above in 126 Luke 17, but I don't think I did well, so readdressing here (and mod'ing my post above):

Luke 17:1 And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 2It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.b 3Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Let's compare this with Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!

Luke starts out warning us not to tempt another to sin and then tells 'us' to watch ourselves! In truth, Luke 17 does not state repentance to man is necessary for forgiveness directly. Brethren are the audience in Luke and Matthew. Brethren as the audience 'understand' to repent (see Luke 18 and James). The rest of the world may or may not. In Matthew we do not see repentance a qualifier to forgive given to Peter in this verse by Christ. It as well states to forgive 'even' if they keep sinning against us (compare this with Matthew 18:21 -- 7 versus 77 times...I can address this difference, but not wanting to get off topic here).

By stark contrast, the Lord will repay one what one sows. It's not our job.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant...continued...

Mathew 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29And his fellow servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


So, man's forgiveness does not equate to God's forgiveness (except we can sanctify unbelieving spouses). We are subject under HIS Instructions to us and example given to us in the flesh. Man's obedience does not equate to Universalism nor negate the Lord's promise to destroy those wicked.

Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy.

2 Thessalonians 2 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

On a side note: We are told to avoid those of other beliefs and who cause divisions which would be stronger to argue against forgiveness than the book of Luke, imho. Some believe we are only held to forgive Brethren (and not those on the outside of the Church). As stated -- I have to forgive personally as resentment, grudges, etc. doesn't have a place in my life (and I don't belief it beneficial in any Christian's life. For anyone who has not seen the War Room...I highly recommend watching this (particularly anyone with problems in their marriage or problems with forgiveness or a weak prayer life).

No. 134     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 7:52 PM     
I am neither a Follower of the universal Church nor I am a follower of a man made religion. Yeshuah made a statement in Matthew 13/52 So then , every Torah teacher who has to be made in a Talmid for the Kingdom of Heaven is like an owner of a home , who brings out of his storage room new and old things.Then he taught in their synagogue in a way that astounded them. The High Priest were focused on the Law, man made Religions and doctrine. Yeshuah's teaching was based on Love and Forgiveness. As His Follower we should do the same. Be careful with Judgements.Yeshuah was healing on Sabbath and he was eating with sinners on the same table. His own apostles were out laws. What does it tell you. Loves us sinners and if we have this Love in us we can forgive ourselves first and than others, I am not a Christian I am an Israelite and I have Yeahuah in my heart and I love him dearly.
No. 135     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 4, 2017 at 8:26 PM     
I believe. When God created Man and woman , He created Man to His Glory and woman of the glory of Man. To Moses time there were divorces allowed. Than Yeshuah was asked if man can divorce his spouse. Yeahuah said , Moses allowed divorce because of your hardness of your hearts.But I tell you what God has put together no man shall separate. Now you asked if one spouse leaves a marriage non biblical , if she is a true Christian
The Bible states that if a Believer married an unbeliever, The unbeliever is saved through the believer or the other way around. But if the Unbeliever wants to separate than let him or her go because they were not equally yoked together. One has to be equally joked before to become one. That mean both have to have the same believes, morality, values, and most of all put God first in their lives. Than means respect and honor God and than honor and respect each other. Also husbands love your wives, as you love your own body Here again we have Love and with Love comes Forgiveness.
No. 136     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 5, 2017 at 12:52 PM     
Tulip,

Thank you for sharing a bit of your history. I studied with the Messianic Jews and they consider themselves Christian as well as Isrealites (which I am 1/8th myself according to my genealogy).

Can I ask why you have stated you are not Christian? From your posts, I would identify you as Christian.

Thanks!

No. 137     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 5, 2017 at 2:49 PM     
I am integrated into the Israelite through the seed of Abraham Than I come out of the 12 tribes of Jacob. Than trough Yeshuah who was Hebrew through His Mother. His earthly Father came out of the House of David, Who was a king. When Yeshuah said, He is a king and His kingdom is not from Here. He told the Truth. I am also baptized in the Name of Yeshuah . That means I am baptized into his Death and into His resurrection. Through Him I died and was reborn again and I have salvation and everlasting Life.
No. 138     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 5, 2017 at 6:18 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Tulip,



Can I ask why you have stated you are not Christian? From your posts, I would identify you as Christian.

Thanks!



If you read her last post (#137) VERY CAREFULLY, and get past all the Hebrew cultural tie-ins, she appears to be identifying herself as a 'oneness' believer, which is heretical.

Additionally, in post #135 she states a misrepresentation (an untruth) from the scripture. Again, one must look CLOSELY to discern it.

Let me state I am not here to be the thread police, but I DO believe when we have people show up here seemingly supporting biblical untruths and misrepresentations, those wrongs should be brought to light. I have done so, and my suggestion is that though Tulip doesn't post all that often, when she does her words MUST be very carefully examined in the light of God's Word.

Obviously those (other doctrines) people, when they show up on a Trinitarian site, are always convinced that THEY are right, and certainly Tulip is not the only one here who promotes another gospel, but given that she hasn't directly responded to my very direct questions and comments on her own statements, other than with Hebrew cultural dogma, I do believe I am detecting a deception-minded agenda. We've seen it before, and we'll see it again.

So keep watch, brothers and sisters.

I'm not going to keep on her case, as this thread is not about her or her seemingly erroneous beliefs, and so tonight I hope to continue on with where I left off before I left for vacation.
No. 139     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 5, 2017 at 10:32 PM     
It is always a sin to break up a marriage by failing to keep covenant with a spouse.
A Marriage covenant includes a fourfold promise, 1 Not to abandon the marriage partner, 2 ) to provide emotionally 3) be faithful 4 } keep the marriage partner as one's only Lover.

It is not a sin for a person to divorce a spouse , who is breaking any of these four promises of marriage providing they are unrepentant or unchanging in their faithfulness.

Divorce is not compulsory when a partner violates a marriage vow, but it is allowed.
It reminds me when they brought an adulteress to Yeshuah and asked him. This woman needs to get stoned , She was caught in the act of adultery. Yeshuah wrote something in the sand ,Hypocrite , self righteous people. We don't know exactly what he wrote . Than he said"who is without sin, throw the first stone. Nobody did. they left. The woman asked him what happen to me now. Yeahuah asked her,"Woman, where are your accusers . ?" She answered him" Nobody there my Lord" " I can see no one" Yeshuah answered back" Neither do I. Go in peace . Don't sin no more" Yeshuah forgave the adulteress . Why shall we not forgive our spouses who divorced us? Who are we to judge. ? Yeshuah made it clear. Do not judge , that you won't be judged also.
Each of us has his or her own relationship with Yeshuah . We can not say , It is right or wrong. This reminds me on a story . A Rabbi told me. A another Rabbi was asked who has the right religion. He told the story. There was once a father . He had 3 sons and only one ring He wanted to give each of his sons a ring before he dies. So he went to the gold smith gave him his ring and told him" to make him 2 more rings exactly like this ring he gave him. A week later , the gold smith brought the father the 3 rings. The Father called his 3 sons and gave each of them a ring. Now the father died and the sons were in disagreement with each other .who had the right ring So they went in front of a judge He looked at the 3 rings , and after a while he looked at the 3 brothers and answered slowly . Each of you got a ring . If each of you believe that each of you have the original ring than each of you have the right one.If we believe different as the other person we shall not judge . Each of us has a right to believe what he or she thinks is right and not what everyone else thinks is right. God is the judge over all of us and each of us loves him in a different way.

No. 140     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 6, 2017 at 1:12 AM     
Storm...Oneness is Pentecostal ... not Messianic Jewish beliefs. You would do better just asking Tulip her beliefs, imho.

Tulip wrote: I am also baptized in the Name of Yeshuah . That means I am baptized into his Death and into His resurrection. Through Him I died and was reborn again and I have salvation and everlasting Life.


Tulip -- Thanks for sharing this. A Christian is one that follows Christ/Yeshua. I am unfamiliar with an 'h' at the end of Christ's name Yeshua, When looking up Yeshauh (with the 'h' on the end), I found it means deliverance or victory with Yahweh in Hebrew (Strong's concordance). Do you speak Hebrew and if so, since you know more than me, myself, can you clarify for me?

This reminds me on a story . A Rabbi told me. Another Rabbi was asked who has the right religion. He told the story. There was once a father . He had 3 sons and only one ring. He wanted to give each of his sons a ring before he died. So he went to the gold smith gave him his ring and told him" to make him 2 more rings exactly like this ring he gave him. A week later, the gold smith brought the father the 3 rings. The Father called his 3 sons and gave each of them a ring. Now the father died and the sons were in disagreement with each other on who had the right ring, so they went in front of a judge. He looked at the 3 rings and after a while he looked at the 3 brothers and answered slowly. Each of you got a ring. If each of you believe that each of you have the original ring then each of you have the right one. If we believe different as the other person we shall not judge. Each of us has a right to believe what he or she thinks is right and not what everyone else thinks is right. God is the judge over all of us and each of us loves him in a different way.


In this story shared...was the Rabbi speaking of gifts given (rings) and the Father's love being the same whereas the Son's understanding failed to understand it was the love and not the rings that mattered? (This is how I would interpret the story shared, but as well I do not understand why the sons would worry about the identical rings)?

I think love has degrees and obedience to the Lord follows, however, I believe this:

Philippians 2:2 1Therefore if you have any encouragement in Christ, if any comfort from His love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being of one mind, having the same love, being united in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or empty pride, but in humility consider others more important than yourselves.

There is only one truth in Scripture and One Gospel. I'm sure you would agree on this, so we do have to Judge Righteously in this regard and live our lives according to His Plan and Perfect ourselves in Christ.

In this way what one believes, matters wouldn't you agree?:

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. 7The more they multiplied, the more they sinned against Me; I will change their glory into shame.

John 7:16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 7:24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Thanks!
No. 141     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 6, 2017 at 10:13 AM     
CAsandie wrote:

Storm...Oneness is Pentecostal


Sorry, not a defining statement. Not all Pentecostals are Oneness. But one thing Oneness people do do is talk about the 'baptism of Jesus' instead of the baptism of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which is what Tulip essentially did. Go back and look!


... not Messianic Jewish beliefs. You would do better just asking Tulip her beliefs, imho.


I did - go back and look!

Really Sandie, I know you have a desire to especially protect woman, but there comes a point where you either have to choose God's theology...or you choose another path. Tulip has apparently chosen hers, as is her right to do so, and YOU have to choose yours, instead of wallowing around in a gray in-between area. I know you won't like hearing that and will protest vigorously, but you'd do better to stop and just look into a theological mirror.

Here in this latest post of yours, your excessive (my opinion) focus on womens' rights (or whatever) has caused you to:

1. Lump all pentecostals with Oneness
2. In your zeal to protect a woman, ignore previous facts that were very obviously stated

Again, as I said this thread was not about Tulip, it is also not about you, which is why I will confine my criticism of your statements to this one post. Make your rebuttal, as I know you MUST, but please give consideration to my words.
No. 142     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM     
...moving on...

1998 – Destruction of marriage
1998–2008 – PHASE ONE - Covenant Understanding - Decade of bewilderment, suffering, growing desire to understand.
2012-13 (approx.) - PHASE TWO - Obsession
2016PHASE THREE – The ‘Lord, Lord’ people
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHASE THREE

Somewhere in the latter parts of last year, I began to get a new understanding of Matt. 7:21 and related scriptures.

I Never Knew You

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt.7:21

I’ve known the text of this scripture for many, many years, of course, but it suddenly took on a whole, new meaning when considered in relationship with my former wife.

Let’s take a look at the whole passage –

I Never Knew You

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


Notice that these people (like my ex-wife) did a number of ‘Godly’ works in His name, yet the response was, “I never knew you.” In fact, Jesus identified them as "workers of lawlessness."

Isn’t that amazing?

Let’s take a look at another passage…

46 "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
Luke 6:46

It is quite obvious that obedience is required, rather than just works. Professing Christians are big on works. True believers are big on obedience.

I’m not going to spend a lot of time on PHASE THREE as it sets the stage for PHASE FOUR, but at this point I was realizing that my definition as to what defined a genuine Christian was going through a RADICAL change, and that under a newer and fuller understanding, my ex was not making the cut.



No. 143     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 6, 2017 at 1:16 PM     
No large rebuttal? here Storm...except I didn't say 'all' Pentecostals believed in Oneness. I said Oneness is Pentecostal. There is a difference.

Also, it's not because a forum member is a woman or a man (I defend men as well) or that I'm on the fence on anything -- that I recognize when one is rude in an off topic personal way.

If you have the need to attempt to find fault in what I say by suggesting it's because of something internally wrong in me...then you might want to consider yourself that I only said, 'you'd do better in asking the person.' I did not hear Oneness Doctrine myself. Whether a man or a woman believes in the Trinity exactly or not (I do not believe in modalism which you might have meant nor do I sit on the fence about it)...although, I don't know that I see modalism either.

I do see no one offended you here. I also do not believe offense should be offered.

As far as your thread here .... Tulip is trying to help you Storm I think.

Have a great rest of your day.

mod. for correction
No. 144     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Tulip427   Gender: F   Age: 64   on  Jul 7, 2017 at 10:09 PM     
Thanks Cass, In the early church baptism Yeshuah It was until the 19th century that we added God the to it. It was Yeshuah who told his followers to go out into the world , teach the Gospel and baptize all the nation. It was 10 days later after Yeshuah was raised up to heaven when the Holy Spirit baptized the Apostles with the Holy Spirit by Fire. So with the Holy Spirit as Helper the went and preached the Gospel in His name and the Holy Spirit. .
No. 145     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Kari   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 7, 2017 at 11:27 PM     
Jesus’ name in Hebrew is not Yeshua/Yeshuah which means Joshua. Jesus’ name means “Yahweh is salvation” and His Hebrew Name is “Yahweh”. All references to Jesus coming in the Old Testament that are quoted in the New Testament, such as on the Day of Pentecost when Peter said, quoting from Joel 2: 28 – 32, “And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” Acts 2: 21, he was referring to Jesus. In Hebrew it says, “And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved”.

When people pray to Yeshua/Yeshuah, they are praying to Joshua, who can neither hear the prayers nor answer them. The only Bible today that has put God’s name in the English translations is the New Jerusalem Bible where His Name has been replaced 6,823 times with the word in capital letters with LORD. Jesus had to reintroduce His Hebrew Name with “Jesus” which means “Yahweh is Salvation”. No place in the Old Testament is our God called “Yeshuah/Yeshua”. When God, Yahweh became flesh He retained His name “YAHWEH” in the Name “JESUS”. When Moses asked God His Name, He said, “Yahweh” (Ex. 4: 13). Also, in Exodus 6: 2, “And God said to Moses, “I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but by my name LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself known to them.” And so, Jesus is the Greek Name for the Hebrew Name Yahweh.

Storm, please continue your thread with your thoughts on Marriage and divorce.
No. 146     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 12:52 AM     

Cut and pasted for understanding:

Yeshua. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.

Yaweh is the Father's name.

I think this is a good article on the usage of Yeshua and Jesus used interchangeably:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Yeshua-Jesus.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Tulip, it is with gladness, your Church accepts Jesus, although I do not know where some of the beliefs you stated on Marriage and Divorce came from (the 4 covenant points), most of what you have stated is the same as what mainstream Christians believe about marriage/divorce.

Forgiveness is 'key' for certain for healing and one's walk with the Lord in my belief as well.

Thanks for your response to my post!

God Bless!

No. 147     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Kari   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 9:52 AM     
The New Testament was written in Greek. If there were any original documents of the New Testament written in Hebrew, we don't have them. At best, some theorize that there might have been a gospel or two written in Hebrew. If that is the case, there is no way to know. The fact is we don't have any Hebrew manuscripts. We only have Greek ones from that period of time.

Since what we do have is the Greek Manuscripts, it is from them that we need to find out what the Apostles wrote about Jesus. In other words, we need to make a case out of what we do have--not what we don't have.

The Greek word for Jesus is Iησοῦς. It is pronounced as "eeaysoos." When "eeaysoos" was transliterated into the English long ago, it became Jesus--the term we use in English today.

When Jesus was born, the second Person of the Trinity took on flesh. Since Jesus is one with the Father, it is not wrong to call Jesus by the name, Yahweh, but it fails to recognize the further revelation which God has given.

I would hope that this thread doesn't go south by arguement. I realize some can't let a bone go.


Storm, if it does, please start a new one on your discussion.
No. 148     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 10:29 AM     
Kari wrote:



I would hope that this thread doesn't go south by arguement. I realize some can't let a bone go.


Storm, if it does, please start a new one on your discussion.


I'm fine with sidebar discussions, even if they only have a small bit of relevance to the OP...as long as people behave themselves at least, and to date, everyone has. I include myself in that also, for at one point I had to delete some additional information before posting as I realized it was argumentative and would not add to free-flow of ideas that were being expressed in this thread.
No. 149     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Kari   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 10:39 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Kari wrote:



I would hope that this thread doesn't go south by arguement. I realize some can't let a bone go.


Storm, if it does, please start a new one on your discussion.


I'm fine with sidebar discussions, even if they only have a small bit of relevance to the OP...as long as people behave themselves at least, and to date, everyone has. I include myself in that also, for at one point I had to delete some additional information before posting as I realized it was argumentative and would not add to free-flow of ideas that were being expressed in this thread.


I did the same

sharing Caroline's post #48:


There are times when a spouse who seems to be a "Christian" is not and will actually become so destructive and evil that the Lord Himself will remove them from the "marriage" for the good of the true Believer. This is what happened to me and it had to be his choice because my commitment was genuine and for that reason I never would have left him. Since God removed him from my life, I have been blessed beyond measure, but his life is under a curse so that nothing he puts his hand to succeeds. He lost everything and my prayer is for God to have mercy on him.


I relate to this. It was heartbreaking to watch. But the path of destruction he took after he left our home proved to be the end of him. Though later, he returned to the church, his life and health were never the same. He died a broken man.


No. 150     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 10:50 AM     
On the new side topic:

Scriptures were translated from 'two' sources: The Latin Vulgate and Greek Septuagint translations. Both Jesus and Yeshua came from the Greek's translation of the Latin Vulgate (same origin).

Modalism believes that God is 'One' being who appears in 'modes' and He wrapped Himself in flesh and came to the earth. Trinity beliefs state there are three distinct persons in One (a Tri-une God).

I provided a link from got questions above.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Storm. I was done with the sidebar a few posts ago ...

Still waiting to hear your conclusion on the OP.

Have a blessed weekend!


No. 151     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 11:40 AM     
...moving on...


I've mentioned, probably more than once, that God continues to teach me through the results and reflections of this past tragedy, and now there is something else brand new as of the posting of this PHASE THREE understanding. Let's get into it...



I Never Knew You

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Matt.7:21-23


Notice that these people (like my ex-wife) did a number of ‘Godly’ works in His name, yet the response was, “I never knew you.” In fact, Jesus identified them as "workers of lawlessness."


So what is the new thing I have learned, and am sharing with you?

"Workers of lawlessness." - Notice that this statement of fact from Jesus was NOT about what we call lawless people. Lawless people are those who are born of Adam's race, which we all are, and continue to reside in that condition. They are rebels of Godliness, and in their personal lives care little about God or His Word or His principles.

Genuine believers no longer live in that paradigm, of course. They have a new heart, a new family, a new obedience.

But if you go with the text, it doesn't really appear to be directly addressing lawless people. Instead, it addresses the professing people - those engaged (or obsessed - remember PHASE TWO?) with doing expected religious things, such as attending church, calling themselves Christian or 'godly', crossing the 't's' and dotting the 'i's' of being religious.

Workers of good works, in other words. The people the Bible describes as having the outer appearance of 'good' yet lacking an innermost vitality of Godliness. These 'good' people are now categorized by our Lord as "workers of lawlessness."

Isn't that interesting?


Now on to personal application -

I did not, for a long, long time, consider my ex as an ungodly person, only a person who committed some ungodly acts, such as has been suggested of her early on in this thread.

It wasn't until this thread, as a matter of fact, that the totality of her many ungodly and sinful (even heinous) acts really came together in my mind. Let's review them...

Lies
Deceptions
Disobedience
Control
Manipulations
Moral Failure
Dishonor
Lawsuits
Theft (of children; prosperity)
Treason
Desertion
Murder (of the marriage)


(Keep in mind that all these sins are either repetitive or the result of corruption - NOT a one-time single sin that we all commit at times)

It is not a short list, but now, some 19 yrs after her desertion, I finally stopped and realized that totality of her corruption. Previously I was too emotionally involved to take a look at the whole picture. Now I have, and you have done so also along with me.

So ask yourselves, is this the witness of a committed follower of Christ? If you looked at such a list of sins of an individual whom you had no prior knowledge of her 'commitment' to Christ, would you even guess that she is a 'godly' person?

Probably not. You would probably see her as a Lawless person.

Yet we know different. We know she has a 'testimony.' We know she made a commitment to Christ. We know she attends church. We know she has done some good works.

And now we all, even the slow-learning Stormchaser, know that she is a "worker of lawlessness," for what genuine believer would do such things NOT ONCE, but as pattern of daily life; as a matter of course?

Do you think she lives for God, as she herself thinks, when she lives her life in such a pattern of continuing corruption and sin? Of course she doesn't see it in that light, but recall Watchman Nee's words of spiritual obsession. And recall also her own words in her message to me on the answering machine after The Ambush, where she apologized for the deception but then rationalized it by claiming it was "God's will." :headbang:

No, I am sorry, but this 'godly' woman is indeed spiritually obsessed, committed in reality to only her own selfish agenda under a religious guise of professing Christ, and, as we now know, a worker of lawlessness. If you have and doubts about this, merely go back and look at the long list of sin and corruption, or go back even further and examine the details of each work of lawlessness, and then ask yourself how could she be anything but?

No. 152     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Kari   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 12:48 PM     
Storm, question:

Do you believe this woman is aware of these wrongs she has done and justifies them? Or do you think she is blinded by the actions and each thing was based on warped good intentions? By that I ask, is she truely a deceiver or is she deceived?

No. 153     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 2:10 PM     
Kari wrote:

Storm, question:

Do you believe this woman is aware of these wrongs she has done and justifies them? Or do you think she is blinded by the actions and each thing was based on warped good intentions? By that I ask, is she truely a deceiver or is she deceived?



No, as I said in PHASE TWO, she is spiritually obsessed. You might want to review post #115, where Watchman Nee clearly describes the condition.

Yes, she is deceived, but as Nee pointed out about those like her, she thinks she has it right. She believes she is in the clear. She likely does not have any clearer idea of her multitudes of wrongdoing any more than I did before I listed them all on this thread. I myself was surprised at how many there were once listed in black & white.

"Warped good intentions"? That might be one way to describe them, but as I now understand, they are 'works of lawlessness.'

Today she still attends (the same) church - the church she was able to deceive. Apparently it is a 'good' fit for her, since she was able to easily corrupt them (described earlier). She found herself a new patsy there, married him, and now plays the role of a 'great' grandmother.

I really don't know anything at all of her current life. She likely is still manipulating her current husband, and others as she perceives a need to do so in order to continue to control things, but as I said, I really don't know. When she dumped me, and after a year, I dumped her as far as any possibility of marital reconciliation, and now, of course with the newer husband, marital reconciliation is biblically disallowed.

Would I reconcile her in a Christian manner if she desired such? Yes I would, if she followed scripture (back to Luke 17), if she indeed repented first. But "repentance" is not a concept she seems to have any real understanding of, and without it any thought of REAL reconciliation would be asinine. I sincerely doubt there was any real repentance in the first place, when she supposedly became a believer. If that's the case, then if she never really learned what reconciling to God meant, she certainly does not really understand what reconciling with man (in this case, ex-husband) means.

Bear in mind this thread is not really about her so much as it is about whether or not a person whom is like her can be a true, genuine Christian. I use her example because I know it best, NOT because I have grievances against her.
No. 154     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 8, 2017 at 2:23 PM     
Probably should have added, as part of my answer to Kari's question, that yes, she is deceived, and in that condition, she becomes a deceiver herself, for one whom is deceived will consequently make decisions based on her own (deceived) worldview, and in her obsession, thinking herself as 'right' (100% right, as she told me), then any consequent decision, right or wrong, automatically becomes 'right' in her obsession, including subsequent deceptive statements or tactics.
No. 155     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 12, 2017 at 10:49 AM     
I didn't want to post this over on RPM's THIS TRAIN IS BOUND FOR GLORY thread on the GENERAL forum to take away from his purpose of that thread, but I find some relevance in relationship to THIS (my) thread.

RPM said, "There will always be someone ... standing " around " the train stations ... always having something to say ... but remember ...

We " came aboard " this train ... and continue to be on this wonderful ride with Jesus Christ ... that's bound for glory !"

Having just covered the "Lord, Lord" people in my PHASE THREE understanding posts, and shortly to get into PHASE FOUR, I believe RPM's observation is right on, that of there will always be people standing around the "train stations," always "having something to say," but they never really BOARD THE TRAIN (to glory).

For whatever reason, they've chosen to 'hang around' God, perhaps enjoying the association, or reveling in the perceived religiousity, putting themselves on the religious throne and feeling good about it.

But they missed the train. They missed the true message. Or they veered off the path (tracks?).

And "train station" is not necessarily an analogy to the church (building). It is much more than that; it more like attempting to run or drive beside the moving train, yet always being left in the dust as that chosen path is inadequate to get you to where the train is going (glory).

There is a term that describes such people. It will be revealed in PHASE FOUR.
No. 156     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jul 12, 2017 at 11:23 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Bear in mind this thread is not really about her so much as it is about whether or not a person whom is like her can be a true, genuine Christian. I use her example because I know it best, NOT because I have grievances against her.


Stormchaser,

Knowing of what I shared here, and reading what you have shared, it has really brought to light about how my ex-wife acted in similar ways that your ex-wife did.

Do you believe your ex-wife is not truly a genuine Christian? Of course we can never know someones heart but "by their fruits we will know them"...
No. 157     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 12, 2017 at 11:47 PM     
Peter4 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

Bear in mind this thread is not really about her so much as it is about whether or not a person whom is like her can be a true, genuine Christian. I use her example because I know it best, NOT because I have grievances against her.


Stormchaser,

Knowing of what I shared here, and reading what you have shared, it has really brought to light about how my ex-wife acted in similar ways that your ex-wife did.

Do you believe your ex-wife is not truly a genuine Christian? Of course we can never know someones heart but "by their fruits we will know them"...


Peter, I'll be addressing that directly in the coming PHASE FOUR posts.

In the meantime, I've had some thoughts about you. You seem to need healing, and I have a link by a Christian brother and a good friend of mine that may really speak to you. Don't prejudge it by the initial framework you find it contained in, but when you get a spare 50 minutes, check it out, and LISTEN TO THE WHOLE THING, ok?

"Life A" or "Life B"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IttVXYgATXI
No. 158     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Jul 13, 2017 at 6:04 AM     
Thank you Stormchaser.

Glad the " This Train is Bound for Glory " thread was helpful ... as you continue with what you are sharing here in your thread.

Even though I am not responding much at all in this thread, I am reading ( and praying ) as you are sharing the ...

" phases."

I believe we all go through " phases " ... periods of time ... when certain " insights " are given to us by God.

Keep up the good work as you continue writing and sharing in this thread.

:goodpost: :2thumbs:

On Stand-By ... :coffeenpc:

No. 159     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 13, 2017 at 11:10 AM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:



I believe we all go through " phases " ... periods of time ... when certain " insights " are given to us by God.

Keep up the good work as you continue writing and sharing in this thread.

:goodpost: :2thumbs:

On Stand-By ... :coffeenpc:



Thank you, RPM. As I have previously mentioned, I am STILL LEARNING as this thread proceeds on, and though it has been somewhat painful to relive these events, I have found that even in creating and contributing to this thread, God still has some things to teach me, so that has been helpful as this thread slowly grinds on (for me). I may have some additional things to add to this near the end.
No. 160     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Jul 14, 2017 at 5:35 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Thank you, RPM. As I have previously mentioned, I am STILL LEARNING as this thread proceeds on, and though it has been somewhat painful to relive these events, I have found that even in creating and contributing to this thread, God still has some things to teach me, so that has been helpful as this thread slowly grinds on (for me). I may have some additional things to add to this near the end.



Yep ... still learning ... and it's just " amazing " how God helps us to see and understand ... some of what He sees and understands ... just enough to keep encouraging us ... as we move forward with Him.

Again ... reading what you are sharing ... and praying for you as you move along through the " phases. " It is an " ongoing process " !



No. 161     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Jul 16, 2017 at 9:37 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

I am STILL LEARNING as this thread proceeds on, and though it has been somewhat painful to relive these events, I have found that even in creating and contributing to this thread, God still has some things to teach me, so that has been helpful as this thread slowly grinds on (for me). I may have some additional things to add to this near the end.


I am also thankful for your thread. It showed me that others can and have gone through similar pain and situations with their wife.

No. 162     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 19, 2017 at 11:25 AM     
...moving on...

1998 – Destruction of marriage
1998–2008 – PHASE ONE - Covenant Understanding - Decade of bewilderment, suffering, growing desire to understand.
2012-13 (approx.) - PHASE TWO - Obsession
2016 – PHASE THREE – The ‘Lord, Lord’ people
2017 – PHASE FOUR – Apostasy (pt. 1)

PHASE FOUR

As I looked at the ‘Lord, lord’ scriptures, I came to realize that there was more to being a genuine believer than what we were hearing from pulpit teaching. During this process, a word popped into my mind that I had not given much thought to in the past, and that word was apostasy. I wondered if that word had any bearing on my current search for truth.

Previously I had merely thought that the word apostate defined one as having left the faith – a definition that I have found to be essentially correct after now researching it out biblically.

Even in the time of Jesus already some were identifying with Him, even believing in His name, yet it seems that they were not genuine -

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people.
Jn. 2:23-24

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They had appeared to belong to Christ’s disciples but yet Jesus did not trust them.

What was the defining characteristic if not “believing in His name,” or having a testimony, or attending ‘church’ regularly?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples" - Jn. 8:31
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There it is in black & white (and red). A Christian is one who continues in Christ’s word. Notice to whom Jesus was speaking. It wasn’t the masses. It was “to the Jews WHO HAD BELIEVED IN HIM!

Isn’t THAT interesting?

Let’s go to John 15 –

1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
From this scripture, what is the defining characteristic that enables one to bear fruit? We are told in the next verses –

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing


What is the key word here? Abide. Abide in me!

But let’s go back and look at a very interesting verse…verse 3 –

3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Again, we have to ask to whom was Jesus speaking to? Obviously it was to those who had believed in Him, Jesus Christ. Jesus said they were already clean, yet the implication (in context) is that there could still be a falling away.

John mentions it again in 1 John 2 –

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice how John says if they really were one of us, they would have CONTINUED with us! Sounds very similar to “ABIDE,” does it not?

What happens to these believers who choose (or end up) not abiding in Him?

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. John 15:6

Is this circumstance mentioned elsewhere in the Bible?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgivenMatt. 12:31
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The NT views as irreparably apostate the man who has committed the unpardonable sin.

At this point the verse right before Matt.12:31, verse 30 becomes very critical –

30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters Matt.12 30
To whom is Jesus referring to? Who is it who does not “gather” with Him? I would say those who do not ABIDE in Him.


So here in my PHASE FOUR (pt. 1) of understanding, I have gone quite a bit deeper into discussing the 'Lord, lord' people. Next I will give some examples of those who may or may not qualify for this designation.



(Let’s take a moment to once again state this is NOT a discussion about OSAS, even though it might appear to be so. OSAS believers have a work-around the concepts taught here. They may or may not be right, but that discussion is better left for another thread, and if anyone chooses to engage in it here, fine, but I will not.)




No. 163     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 19, 2017 at 1:17 PM     
I have a question that I might again get bounced out of the thread to hold, but I do have this question and it is one aimed at help and not hurt:

What do you gain by believing it is righteous judgement to decide your ex-wife not a Christian?

I have lived a long life I believe and in the small life I have lived, I have never found 'peace' in blame. Not once. I have found disdain for another. I have found means of holding unto a grudge and anger, but never peace. To the contrary, I have found 'peace' and have only 'truly' moved on when forgiveness fills my soul. It is then I am free. This is me personally, but I am one to say if 'sin' was the only factor in 'faith' -- no one would be Christians then.

So what do YOU think or believe?


There has been such times of pain in my life where 'nothing' could fix that pain, except for laying it upon the feet of Jesus and carrying on with my life (and I've learned that no alternative fixes will arrive at true healing).

Psalm 55:22 (KJV) 22 Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

Notice the KJV says 'He shall never suffer.' I recount the times of sorrow in my life when 'true' joy was recovered and looking up to thank the Lord and knowing His eyes too were dried.

He feels our pain.

That is all I have. No jury. No trial against anyone in the end. I understand you are blogging your feelings here (many that I have not read myself as they seem so very personal)...so forgive me again for challenging your views that I might see different than you, yourself do.

Blessings wished, Storm.

mod to add a bit more for clarity
No. 164     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 19, 2017 at 7:10 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

I have a question that I might again get bounced out of the thread to hold, but I do have this question and it is one aimed at help and not hurt:

What do you gain by believing it is righteous judgement to decide your ex-wife not a Christian?

I have lived a long life I believe and in the small life I have lived, I have never found 'peace' in blame. Not once. I have found disdain for another. I have found means of holding unto a grudge and anger, but never peace. To the contrary, I have found 'peace' and have only 'truly' moved on when forgiveness fills my soul. It is then I am free. This is me personally, but I am one to say if 'sin' was the only factor in 'faith' -- no one would be Christians then.

So what do YOU think or believe?


There has been such times of pain in my life where 'nothing' could fix that pain, except for laying it upon the feet of Jesus and carrying on with my life (and I've learned that no alternative fixes will arrive at true healing).

Psalm 55:22 (KJV) 22 Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

Notice the KJV says 'He shall never suffer.' I recount the times of sorrow in my life when 'true' joy was recovered and looking up to thank the Lord and knowing His eyes too were dried.

He feels our pain.

That is all I have. No jury. No trial against anyone in the end. I understand you are blogging your feelings here (many that I have not read myself as they seem so very personal)...so forgive me again for challenging your views that I might see different than you, yourself do.

Blessings wished, Storm.

mod to add a bit more for clarity


Back to forgiveness again???

We covered that.

For instance, in post #82 I said,

"Also keep in mind this is no ways a witch-hunt. What's done is done, and I have most definitely moved on. But I do believe that God will continue to teach us (should we be open to it) from our experiences, so though the hurt and pain from this period is mostly gone, and I am not really enjoying revisiting it now, yet I realize that there are 'gems', I'd even call them Godly gems of wisdom that are there to be gleaned by those willing to face them, question them, and absorb them."

And then in post #107, responding to ANOTHER plea on your part for forgiveness, I responded,

"Just to clarify, this thread is not about divorce, forgiveness, remarriage, singleness or inappopriate judgment. It IS about whether a Godly Christian can divorce a Christian spouse (though it will also address the likely conclusions should that premise be not true)."

So I will answer just one part of this latest fixation on forgiveness, but in reality, I find it off-topic , not because of any irrelevancy, but from overkill...

What do you gain by believing it is righteous judgement to decide your ex-wife not a Christian?

This question is indicative of your overriding fixation on forgiveness, but as mentioned, this thread is NOT ABOUT FORGIVENESS! It is about doctrine. But to directly answer the question, I've said NOTHING about righteous judgment on MY PART towards my ex.

Let me repeat that for any slow-learners...

NOTHING!

I haven't even said anything about God's righteous judgment towards my ex...yet

So please let's get off the forgiveness fixation, and save it for another thread. :sick:
No. 165     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 19, 2017 at 9:54 PM     
Storm, the question was doctrinal, but you do not see it as such. We have one Commandment. We have limited time on this earth.

You say I'm a slow 'learner.' I knew I'd get bounced out again if expressing my own views. I am though an outsider looking in and as a Christian I have 'doctrinal' issues with what you are attempting to 'teach' here.

I know you are on a journey here though and I am not trying to interfere with what might be therapeutic for you or others in a way that I do not see personally...

Carry on. Awaiting your conclusion (I have not read in between/too long/too personal as far as my limited time for MC which lately has been less)...

No. 166     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 20, 2017 at 1:18 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Storm, the question was doctrinal, but you do not see it as such.


A misleading statement, as I have repeatedly stated the question of the OP is a doctrinal one. But you might be referring to your own 'forgiveness' responses, and you would be right in one sense, since forgiveness is a doctrinal principle, as well as an emotional necessity.

Yet your responses have focused NOT on the doctrinal principle of forgiveness (which would be a sidebar discussion at best), but rather on the emotional necessity of forgiveness, which most definitely is off-topic in this particular thread.

Yet you continue to do so, while at the same time defending yourself in engaging in it.


So be it. I had had some thoughts of coming back to the earlier sidebar discussion of forgiveness after I was finished with the OP discussion, but that sidebar discussion is now off the books as the current off-topic interruption has gotten old.

So I will restate, ONCE AGAIN, where I am going with this thread, AND WHERE I AM NOT GOING WITH IT...

"Just to clarify, this thread is not about divorce, forgiveness, remarriage, singleness or inappopriate judgment. It IS about whether a Godly Christian can divorce a Christian spouse (though it will also address the likely conclusions should that premise be not true)."

So from this point on, I will not only be ignoring posts on OSAS (which has not been a problem as of yet), but also ignoring any posts about forgiveness. This thead is large enough without getting into additional, off-topic diversions.
No. 167     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 20, 2017 at 5:00 PM     
So let's do a couple of case studies. These are actual people I know and have been involved with.

Case Study #1 -

'Jack' got involved with my church. He loved being around Christians. He participated in the singles outings. He was very friendly and people enjoyed having him around at group events.

On the other hand Jack was very self-absorbed. He pretty much thought first and only of himself. He was also a moocher, taking advantage of anything 'free' he could get, and rarely contributed to any potlucks, group funds, or anything like that.

Jack never made any sort of committment to Jesus Christ, he just liked being around Christians.

Is Jack an apostate?

I'd say no. Why? Because he never made any commitment to Jesus Christ. He is a non-believer, rather than a professing one. According to Scripture, Jack has no future with God, unless he repents, but unlike an apostate, he can still repent as long as he still lives.



Case Study #2 -

'Jim' is a guy who attends the church I currently attend. He calls himself a Christian, attends church every Sunday, has been known to help people out at times, likes to go to Christian festivals, and is very social and people enjoy having him around to converse with.

Jim owns a couple of houses. He is single (twice divorced) and rents out rooms in his houses at a fairly high rate.

But Jim has some serious moral issues. As an example, he came with me to a Christian festival and got free attendance as a benefit of volunteering to work, as did I. But Jim never registered to work after he got there. Instead, he sat around on his butt, whether at the camp site or attending the Christian concerts. I challenged him on this and his response was "Well, I helped a couple of ladies set up their tent." This was a base lie that he admitted to some time later, when I made mention of it and he couldn't even remember the lie until after I mentioned it to him. At any rate, he agreed to work for the festival in exchange for his free ticket, but he never did an ounce of work.

So he lied and defrauded his Christian brethren who put on the festival.

Jim has also stolen from me.

Additionally, while Jim was raising the rent with me (obviously I lived in one of his houses for a spell), he told me his goal was to raise the rent to the amount that would make me move out, and then back it up one dollar to keep me there. This is an attitude from a believer???

Jim has a poor record with his testimony to non-believers. Recently, a single mother who rented a room from him posted a video on FB describing how he was deliberately doing actions that threatened her child. There could be some exaggeration here, but the main point is that she HATES him. She has posted on FB that she hates Christians, and that there are only about 7 Christians she likes. I am one of the 7 (though no names were given on the video).

Is Jim an apostate? Really, only God can know for sure, so unlike some previous comments that seem to indicate I am judging the eternal standing of people, I do not do that. But what I actually do is have an opinion, and my opinion of 'Jim' is yes, he is an apostate, and yes, he is in serious trouble when he finally comes to his ultimate judgment.



Case study #3 -

'Jan' attends church every Sunday without fail. She claims to be a believer and has a testimony of conversion. I think she may be a tither, though I am not certain. She also has attended many Christian festivals. She also has attended specialized Christian training events. Jan is very social and many people enjoy being around her.

Not so much her (ex) husband, though. Jan pretty much treated him as a doormat, and almost always put herself and her needs before his. She was disobedient to him (though had NO problem with expecting obedience FROM him), seemed to enjoy having him on a leash, and when that leash was beginning to fray, walked out on him from the marriage and started taking him to court, getting every penny she could from him.

Sound familiar? Yes, we're talking about my ex-wife.

Is she an apostate? I will finally give my opinion on this - yes, I believe she is. Hear me, before this thread was created, I would have very much disagreed that she could be apostate.

I saw her as many of you see 'Christians' (like 'Jim' in the above case study #2), as someone who wasn't perfect, made mistakes, but had made (performed, I'd now say) the basic Christian commitments.

And yet where is her real testimony? Does church attendance count? How about her many good deeds? Is that the dividing line? And for those of you who prefer to make excuses for such folk rather than going with what God's Word actually says, is what has been stated about her good works enough for you?

Let's take another work at her 'good works' that have been documented on this thread:

Lies
Deceptions
Disobedience
Control
Manipulations
Moral Failure
Dishonor
Lawsuits
Theft (of children; prosperity)
Treason
Desertion
Murder (of the marriage)


This list is her testimony, her life. Is there anything listed here that indicates she is sold out to Christ?

Anything?

Yet she claims Him. Does He claim her?
Let's take a look at something I posted earlier...

You call Me Eternal, then do not seek Me.
You call Me Fair, then do not love Me.
You call Me Gracious, then do not trust Me.
You call Me Just, then do not fear Me.
You call Me Life, then do not choose Me.
You call Me Light, then do not see Me.
You call Me Lord, then do not respect Me.
You call Me Master, then do not obey Me.
You call Me Merciful, then do not thank Me.
You call Me Mighty, then do not honor Me.
You call Me Noble, then do not serve Me.
You call Me Rich, then do not ask Me.
You call Me Savior, then do not praise Me.
You call Me Shepherd, then do not follow Me.
You call Me the Way, then do not walk with Me.
You call Me Wise, then do not heed Me.
You call Me Son of God, then do not worship Me.
When I sentence you, then do not blame Me.


So now that the Lord has opened my eyes to some things, such as relevant scripture, the preponderance of ungodly acts listed for the first time in total, and the time spent in meditation of all this together, I can say that yes, I have changed my opinion of her standing in Christ, even though for most of life I though her merely mistaken, rather than apostate. But there's a point where the evidence becomes so overwhelming that you either choose to go with it, or remain ignorant.




Now, those whom have made some claims that this thread is merely about my ex, and/or my sour grapes, might think that ok, we have finally got there; Storm's ex has finally been fully exposed, so...end of thread.

Not so.

There is more to be discussed, like for instance are others who have unrighteously turned their backs on their spouses apostate? We also have - PHASE FOUR, Apostacy (pt. 2) - to be discussed, and the OP has not really been fully addressed as of yet. And more, so don't get too comfortable thinking all has been said.

...more coming...


No. 168     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Jul 22, 2017 at 5:58 AM     
:coffeenpc:
No. 169     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 22, 2017 at 12:24 PM     
Let's take a look at the Epistles of John to see what they say on the matter.

First 1 John:

6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

Not a direct indictment of apostasy, but certainly an indication.


But 1 Jn. 2:4 seems to indicate a definite cause & effect on true believers vs. false…

4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him


Verse 6 gives another indication…

6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.


Same for verse 15…

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.


Verse 19 was mentioned earlier, and though the specific application is toward “anti-christs,’ the general principle is clear…

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.


1 Jn.3:4 is extremely interesting…

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness;sin is lawlessness.

You might want to review what I posted in post #151 about what the Bible says about "workers of lawlessness." It wasn't addressing non-believers.



Verses 6-10…

6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


“No one who abides in him keeps on sinning”

“No one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.”


Have all these verses been written with the common man-on-the-street in mind? No, they have NOT. They are written with the thought of those among us who name the name, who proclaim "Lord, lord," who call themselves 'Christians' or 'believers'.

I think we need to give some SERIOUS thought to what God is telling us here. Let’s not get confused by mistaken pulpit-teachings of some pastor’s idea of what defines a genuine Christian, especially if said pastor is the product himself of previous pulpit-teachings he grew up under.

God’s Word is what we should be going by, NOT man’s word, even if proclaimed from a pulpit. Teachings of such doctrines such as forgiveness, justification, and more need to be taken in consideration and context of God’s whole TRUTH as expressed in His Word, and NOT by cherry-picking verses to support one’s favorite doctrine, at the expense of others.

“Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil”

“By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God”


Finally, let’s take a look at 1 Jn. 5:16…

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life--to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death

“There is a sin that leads to death.”

My study bible’s notes section on this verse gives an interesting read –

Sin that leads to death is probably sin that is

(1) unrepented of and

(2) of the kind of or nature that John has warned vbout throughout the letter:

Resolute rejection of the true doctrine about Christ
Chronic disobedience to God’s commandments
Persistent lack of love for fellow believers

-all indications of a lack of saving faith – which will not be forgiven.” ESV Study Bible (Crossway)

I think we need to wake up to what the Word teaches, and forget about a lot of the fleshly and man-pleasing doctrines we hear from the pulpit and from ignorant babes in Christ who seemingly only wish to proclaim what sounds 'nice'. God is more than just 'nice,' as many will discover at the Day of Judgment. He is Holy, He is Loving, and He also has a nature of JUSTICE.
No. 170     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 23, 2017 at 11:39 AM     
The question of the OP is, "If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?"

I think it has been pretty obvious that I have been heading for a position that essentially is anyone who does such a thing without biblical justification has some major problems with their (lack of) relationship with the Lord. And that has lead me to the current research of what God's Word has to say about apostasy.

But let's do a sort of U-turn and look at a scripture that seems to indicate a person may desert a marriage without God's permission and still remain a believer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife. 1 Cor. 7:10-11
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have argued previously that we must carefully note to whom the various scriptures we discuss are directed to, and much of my own argument has pointed out that the verses we have covered concern those who are gathered as the body of Christ, and not the general non-believers of the world. This makes a big difference in how we interpret scripture.

In the case of 1 Cor. 7 it is the same, only this time it would seem to argue against my points (Lord, lord people and apostates). That would only be true if I were arguing that anyone who leaves a marriage unbiblically is an apostate, but that is not my true belief.

Why isn't it? Because of 1 Cor. 7:10-11.

In these verses, Scripture is recognizing (or so it seems) that a believer CAN desert a marriage as a mistake ONLY, but yes, it can happen, or rather, in an imperfect and sinful world, it happens.

I see nothing in these verses that gives permission for such desertion to happen, or any implication that such an action can be legitimate, and indeed the idea stated is that it should not (happen), and that if it does, it should be righted as soon as possible. If not righted, then a restriction is laid down until such time it IS righted.

But back to the OP, it seems that one can be a believer, yet by disobedience, desert a marriage.

This obviously is something that Scripture says shouldn't happen, and by implication, is a sin. But we all know, from personal experience, that believers DO sin.


So there you are. The OP has been answered...or has it?
No. 171     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Jul 23, 2017 at 1:37 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

... it seems that one can be a believer, yet by disobedience, desert a marriage.



Yep ... pretty well sums it up ... " disobedient believers."

Thanks again for this thread ... may it " enlighten " whoever reads it.

:goodpost:
No. 172     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Jul 23, 2017 at 11:44 PM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

... it seems that one can be a believer, yet by disobedience, desert a marriage.



Yep ... pretty well sums it up ... " disobedient believers."

Thanks again for this thread ... may it " enlighten " whoever reads it.

:goodpost:


So this is it?????? This is your answer/conclusion

Who would have thunk we agreed on the matter the entire time. :-p

(I really thought your conclusion was going a different way)!

The thing left to state that anyone can believe (even satan believes). Following Christ is another thing. Divorce is not a sin that leads to death, but adultery is (so one can divorce for whatever reason [even though it is not God's Will for man/it's disobedient as you have stated], but to remarry without the correct reason being met would amount to adultery[a sin that does lead to death]).

Adding a bit to the topic (or not if you believe it's off topic), I think love doesn't fail, but often I think there is something missing in people. My faith and hope lies here in Christ's promise to us:

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.





No. 173     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 63   on  Jul 23, 2017 at 11:54 PM     
CAsandie wrote:



So this is it?????? This is your answer/conclusion




Lol. You may want to go back (seems like I'm always saying that to you) and reread my last 3 words posted.
No. 174     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Jul 31, 2017 at 9:50 AM     
Let's continue on...

1998 – Destruction of marriage
1998–2008 – PHASE ONE - Covenant Understanding - Decade of bewilderment, suffering, growing desire to understand.
2012-13 (approx.) - PHASE TWO - Obsession
2016 – PHASE THREE – The ‘Lord, Lord’ people
2017 – PHASE FOUR – Apostasy (pt. 1)
2017 - PHASE FOUR - Apostasy (pt. 2)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHASE FOUR - Apostasy (pt. 2)

The Biblical verses of part 1 came to be before my vacation trip up North in June to the wonderful Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship camp (Cedar Campus) of which I've had a long-term relationship with.

The focus of study at that camp this year was on the Book of Hebrews. There were some great things shared by the speaker/teacher, but the real thrust for me personally were the Warnings of Hebrews, which all centered on Apostasy.

As I begin to share some of the things the Lord had for me, one thing you should understand from the Hebrews' warnings is that these warnings are to Christians, not unbelievers.

Another thing you might want to notice is that the warnings of apostasy are progressive in nature, beginning with drifting away and finally ending up with despising Christ. We'll talk about this more presently.

So here are the Warnings of Hebrews:

2.1-4: “Do not drift away … pay much closer attention to what we have heard … we will not escape.”

3.12-19: “Do not fall away from the living God … encourage one another day after day … we will not enter His rest.”

6.1-8: “Do not fall away … press on to maturity … we are close to being cursed.”

10.26-31 (cf. 10.19-25): “Do not go on sinning willfully … encourage one another … we will experience a terrifying expectation of judgment.”

12.25-29: “Do not refuse Him who is speaking … show gratitude … we will not escape.”

(I tried to find a chart image that I could bring over but was unable to find one. There is a pdf chart you can download if desired at http://bcresources.net/app/2234000-heb0000-warnings-cht-bcrx/)


Another website gives a good preface (I'll link to it later)...

Preface

"Today we are living in a period of time like the days of Noah when there is no fear of God before men’s eyes (Rom. 3:18). The unsaved know the judgment of God is upon those who do such things as they do today, yet they not only do them but they have pleasure in them that do them (Rom. 1:32). They are treasuring up for themselves wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgments of God (Rom. 2:5).

What is even worse than this, if such could be the case, is that the saved have no fear of God before their eyes. You do not love someone you do not respect. “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding” (Prov. 9:10; cf. 1:7). “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil” (Prov. 8:13). The early church had a correct godly fear of God, and this is the reason they went out and turned the world ‘right-side-up.’ Notice this in Acts:

Acts 2:42-43 And they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.

Acts 5:5, 11 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 And the young men arose and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and, going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase. (cf. 19:17).

May God be pleased to use these pages to help stem the tide of fearlessness among believers today. “Let us have grace whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire” (Heb. 12:28-29). “Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name” (Mal. 3:16)."


No. 175     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 1, 2017 at 11:43 AM     
As part of my introduction to the warnings of apostasy in Hebrews, I’d like to share a statement I’ve found.

The message of Hebrews can be summed up in a single phrase: “God speaks effectively to us through Jesus.” Let’s unpack these word a little bit.

God speaks. First-century people had trouble with the idea that only one God spoke to them. Twenty-first century people have trouble with the idea that any God would speak to them. The secularizing of the twentieth century has done its work. This thinking is not the work of spiritual skepticism so much as the work of doubting any spirituality that is not generated by our human desire and abilities. We want to do it our way, and in the process we forget to listen for the voice of God. God speaks.
[In how this works in the case of my ex’s apostasy, she doubted that God could correct our marriage. Essentially, she doubted God...period.So when tough times came, she relied upon her own devices, relying upon the flesh instead the Word of God.]

Effectively. God's voice is not a crying in the wilderness, a spitting in the wind. It is effective. First-century people believed the gods mad a difference; twenty-first century people cannot believe it.
[It is unbelief in God. That was my ex. She just couldn't believe in God enough to allow Him to work.]

To us. As self-centered as twenty-first century people are, there is still a doubt that a God (if one exists) would speak (if we could hear) in such a way that makes a difference in solving the world’s problems. God speaks to me? But that is part of Hebrews’ message. We are the target audience of God’s effective speaking.
[Truthfully, and other than from a momentary prayer or two (if even utilized), I seriously doubt that my ex gave more than a passing thoutht that the God of the Universe would even spare a word for her. She was self-centered, and into control. As such, she spoke to herself of what must be done, rather than waiting upon God to speak. And as usual when that happens, the damage was considerable.]

Keep in mind the idea of the OP. My comments here of my ex's apostasy should be heard with the idea of their relevancy to the OP, NOT as an excuse for me to further diss her.
No. 176     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Aug 5, 2017 at 9:21 AM     
Do you believe that if your ex-wife had listened to God's Word and His commands and His guidance, that a divorce could have been avoided?

I believe in my circumstance that if my ex-wife had only humbled herself and listened to God and His Word in regards to divorce, she would have NOT divorced but would have sought reconciliation and healing through God. Our marriage would have been saved if ONLY she had listened to God and His Word. That is my belief, as it is my counselors belief and countless other Christian people I know.
No. 177     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 5, 2017 at 10:13 AM     
So let us continue of apostasy in the Book of Hebrews –


Warning #1:
The Danger of Drifting


Hebrews 2:1-3
1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard

Incorporated within the very framework and message of the book of Hebrews are five danger signals. These are like stop signs on the boulevard of apostasy. They are warning posters placed on the freeway of disobedience.



1. Chapter 2 The danger of drifting.
2. Chapters 3-4 The danger of not entering into rest.
3. Chapters 5-6 The danger of not going on to maturity.
4. Chapter 10 The danger of willful sin.
5. Chapter 12 The danger of indifference to the point of denial.

There is a progression in these warnings. It starts with being careless about salvation and indifferent to spiritual things until finally one comes to be perfectly satisfied with being indifferent.

W. H. Griffith Thomas has stated for these five warnings: “Don’t drift, disbelieve, degenerate, despise, depart.”

For our study we will follow the following order.

1. Drifting
2. Doubtings
3. Deformity
4. Despising
5. Denying

Each one of these danger signs is part of the truth of this Epistle. The author stops in each case to apply the truth he has already presented to the lives of his hearers. It is not enough to know. There must be a performance of what is known. Knowledge bears responsibility.

Basic to any understanding of these warnings is to first understand that the Hebrews to whom the writer is speaking in this Epistle are saved.

That is a critical element of our thinking as referencing the OP. The warnings are NOT given to unbelievers; instead, believers are warned.

George Guthrie has shown that Hebrews was written to immature Christians who were tempted to fall away from church attendance and returned to their pre-Christian lifestyle. It was written to “encourage discouraged believers drifting away from real Christianity by bolstering commitment to draw near to God and to endure in commitment to Christ,” and it was “especially relevant for those tempted to turn from Christianity or Christian fellowship to pre-conversion patterns of life.”

Hmm. Patterns? Patterns is pretty much what I described of my ex, were they not? In her case, patterns of evil deeds and actions. Patterns that indicate where her true relationship with God exists…or not.

One more comment about this study of Hebrews. It is ongoing. That means I have not previously studied it in relationship to the subject of the OP and that I have not previously formed opinions on it.

Instead, I am studying it fresh with the intention of gleaming fresh insights on the subject of apostasy, and I invite you along with me, whether vicariously or in your own actual study and research.

So we are beginning with the first warning of apostasy in Hebrews, Heb. 2:1-3.

No. 178     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 5, 2017 at 10:39 AM     
Peter4 wrote:

Do you believe that if your ex-wife had listened to God's Word and His commands and His guidance, that a divorce could have been avoided?



It is really a theological question, that of what is meant by "listened to God's Word."

First, was she listening to God's Word?

I don't believe she was even reading it, let alone obeying it. Her agenda was command & control, and she only saw that happening from fleshly manipulation...of me, of any church leaders she could corrupt, and through the legal system.

Secondly, what if she was aware of God's guidance (through His Word)? Even if she was, did she follow it? Did she obey?

No, she did not.

So back to your question, Peter, yes, I do believe a divorce could have been avoided had she acted with Godly wisdom, rather than human wisdom. Certainly divorce was not even in the back of my mind, so any impetus in that direction was solely from her.

And if you read my latest post on Hebrews, you will read that I referenced the pre-conversion patterns of the Hebrews believers that they tended to drift back in to as they drifted back into apostasy.

So while I feel quite safe in my understandings of my own ex's patterns of apostasy, in your own case, I would be asking myself what life patterns did she follow (or drift back into) when she deserted your marriage.
No. 179     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 6, 2017 at 8:14 AM     
A thought that just occurred to me - is there a sort of quick down & dirty way to ascertain whether someone is a true Christian (even though they have disobeyed God and deserted a marriage) might be to see if there is any remorse and most especially any repentance?

Of course anyone can have remorse, and remorse does not require any action, so let's throw that out of the equation.

Repentance, on the other hand, does require action at some point, usually soon. If God convicts someone of their wrong actions, and that inner voice of conviction is ultimately ignored, I'd say that we're dealing with an apostate, one who ignores or ends up really not caring what God says. In that case, obviously there is no repentance for no action from conviction has occurred (remorse is not an action).

So there you are - the verses in 1 Cor. 7 that speak of if one leaves a marriage, still being a believer, would seem to indicate that this is (or should be) a temporary situation, allowing some time for remorse and repentance to take hold in a believer's life, therefore correcting what should have never happened in the first place, according to God's Word.

And if that temporary situation becomes permanent? Then I think you have an excellent possibility for apostasy. There is no timeline given for resolving the temporary situation (of marital desertion) however. That takes it pretty much out of human judgment (though not human opinion) IMHO. God will judge it, ultimately. In the meantime, we must follow scripture, which means we can recognize problems, red flags, etc., and do the best we can but if any actions are taken on our part (towards the marital violaters), it must be in accordance with Scripture, and here we must tred very carefully - unlike the foolish churchman in my own example who blundered about carelessly using scripture the way it suited them, as did my ex-wife.

This post may seem to be kind of a wrap-up to the thread, but I wanted to post as insights came in, rather than holding off with them. I still will be continuing with the study of apostasy that Hebrews talks about.
No. 180     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Aug 6, 2017 at 11:18 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Peter4 wrote:

Do you believe that if your ex-wife had listened to God's Word and His commands and His guidance, that a divorce could have been avoided?



It is really a theological question, that of what is meant by "listened to God's Word."

First, was she listening to God's Word?

I don't believe she was even reading it, let alone obeying it. Her agenda was command & control, and she only saw that happening from fleshly manipulation...of me, of any church leaders she could corrupt, and through the legal system.

Secondly, what if she was aware of God's guidance (through His Word)? Even if she was, did she follow it? Did she obey?

No, she did not.

So back to your question, Peter, yes, I do believe a divorce could have been avoided had she acted with Godly wisdom, rather than human wisdom. Certainly divorce was not even in the back of my mind, so any impetus in that direction was solely from her.

And if you read my latest post on Hebrews, you will read that I referenced the pre-conversion patterns of the Hebrews believers that they tended to drift back in to as they drifted back into apostasy.

So while I feel quite safe in my understandings of my own ex's patterns of apostasy, in your own case, I would be asking myself what life patterns did she follow (or drift back into) when she deserted your marriage.


1 - My ex-wife chose NOT to seek professional Christian counseling. I begged and pleaded but she refused.

2 - She failed and neglected the Biblical mandates and principles of what marriage is and when can a Christian couple seek Biblical divorce. She told her friends and boasted to her friends on how she STOPPED LOVING ME and she was so proud of that. Yet, the Bible says love is an action and a mandate, NOT an option and NOT something you stop doing in a marriage. God COMMANDS spouses to love each other. (She based her grounds for divorce on an argument that happened 10 years prior and was all but gone and never repeated but she dug up this rotted incident from 10 years past and used that as her grounds for divorce.)

3 - She never even attempted to reconcile through Godly means and I was never given a chance to sit down and discuss why she wanted to divorce. (She basically gave me a 1 day notice that's she's leaving and left. When I attempted to contact her she exploded on me and told me not to contact her. She then sent me a text message about 10 months after she left and stated she wanted a divorce)

4 - She sought advice from unsaved co-workers and friends instead of Godly Christian couples. Instead she restored to gossip to her friends. One of which was a really big liar and gossiper (Angie - who I termed as an "agent of Satan" because she was) who only sought to dissolve the marriage and spread lies and gossip.

5 - I stayed with my wife when she had eating disorder addictions and she suffered from mental illness and was on prescription drugs for her disorders. I would have never abandoned her and loved her like Christ loves the Church. I never cheated on her, never abused her, and cared and provided for her. Yet in some cruel twist of fate she left me for no just cause.

6 - When she left me she started doing the secular MIND ALIVE procedures which uses light therapy and alters brain chemistry. She changed so dramatically afterwards. She became so angry and so hostile and cold towards me. After starting the MIND ALIVE treatment she divorced me about 8 months later
No. 181     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 1:14 AM     
Peter4 wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

Peter4 wrote:

Do you believe that if your ex-wife had listened to God's Word and His commands and His guidance, that a divorce could have been avoided?



It is really a theological question, that of what is meant by "listened to God's Word."

First, was she listening to God's Word?

I don't believe she was even reading it, let alone obeying it. Her agenda was command & control, and she only saw that happening from fleshly manipulation...of me, of any church leaders she could corrupt, and through the legal system.

Secondly, what if she was aware of God's guidance (through His Word)? Even if she was, did she follow it? Did she obey?

No, she did not.

So back to your question, Peter, yes, I do believe a divorce could have been avoided had she acted with Godly wisdom, rather than human wisdom. Certainly divorce was not even in the back of my mind, so any impetus in that direction was solely from her.

And if you read my latest post on Hebrews, you will read that I referenced the pre-conversion patterns of the Hebrews believers that they tended to drift back in to as they drifted back into apostasy.

So while I feel quite safe in my understandings of my own ex's patterns of apostasy, in your own case, I would be asking myself what life patterns did she follow (or drift back into) when she deserted your marriage.


1 - My ex-wife chose NOT to seek professional Christian counseling. I begged and pleaded but she refused.

2 - She failed and neglected the Biblical mandates and principles of what marriage is and when can a Christian couple seek Biblical divorce. She told her friends and boasted to her friends on how she STOPPED LOVING ME and she was so proud of that. Yet, the Bible says love is an action and a mandate, NOT an option and NOT something you stop doing in a marriage. God COMMANDS spouses to love each other. (She based her grounds for divorce on an argument that happened 10 years prior and was all but gone and never repeated but she dug up this rotted incident from 10 years past and used that as her grounds for divorce.)

3 - She never even attempted to reconcile through Godly means and I was never given a chance to sit down and discuss why she wanted to divorce. (She basically gave me a 1 day notice that's she's leaving and left. When I attempted to contact her she exploded on me and told me not to contact her. She then sent me a text message about 10 months after she left and stated she wanted a divorce)

4 - She sought advice from unsaved co-workers and friends instead of Godly Christian couples. Instead she restored to gossip to her friends. One of which was a really big liar and gossiper (Angie - who I termed as an "agent of Satan" because she was) who only sought to dissolve the marriage and spread lies and gossip.

5 - I stayed with my wife when she had eating disorder addictions and she suffered from mental illness and was on prescription drugs for her disorders. I would have never abandoned her and loved her like Christ loves the Church. I never cheated on her, never abused her, and cared and provided for her. Yet in some cruel twist of fate she left me for no just cause.

6 - When she left me she started doing the secular MIND ALIVE procedures which uses light therapy and alters brain chemistry. She changed so dramatically afterwards. She became so angry and so hostile and cold towards me. After starting the MIND ALIVE treatment she divorced me about 8 months later


After all these postings, what comes to my mind is that both SC and P4 should not look for a remarriage if your are true believers in Christ. Your physical helper left, therefore, give full room to the Holy Spirit as your Helper for the rest of your lives.
No. 182     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 10:27 AM     
Devaprakash wrote:



After all these postings, what comes to my mind is that both SC and P4 should not look for a remarriage if your are true believers in Christ. Your physical helper left, therefore, give full room to the Holy Spirit as your Helper for the rest of your lives.


Almost scriptural for once, Deva, though it should be pointed out, once again, that the OP is not about whether remarriage should be in the picture for a believer, but rather is a believer who abandons a marriage unscripturally a true believer.

No. 183     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 11:12 AM     
-continuing on...

Warning #1:
The Danger of Drifting

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebrews 2:1-3
1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This first warning focuses on the importance of heeding the salvation message brought by Jesus. The first verse contains two nautical terms, and means, "We must eagerly anchor ourselves to the truths we've been taught, or we are likely to drift away from our moorings." (Illustrated Bible Handbook, Nelson's.)

The reference to punishments is historical: the Mosiac law, conveyed by angels, carried penalties for those who violated it (Deut. 28). To what then can these Hebrew believers flee ("how shall we escape") if they turn away from the "great salvation" which has been announced by God himself? Turning back (to Judaism in this case) holds out no hope at all!

I like how The Message Bible puts it - "It's crucial that we keep a firm grip on what we've heard so that we don't drift off."

True believers are and remain in His 'grip.' Those whom are not anchored ("gripped") tend to drift away, like a boat not tethered to a dock. God is our 'dock.' If we are not anchored to Him, we are as the world, subject to any current that captures us, and drift away to wherever it chooses to take us.

--------
--------

An application question as to the OP -

Is a believer who unscripturally deserts a marriage in God's grip, or...is he or she bedeviled by the currents (culture) of the world? You might even want to substitute the word 'wickedness' for 'current'.
No. 185     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 11:13 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:



How about my book 'Can A Christian Marry, Divorce And Remarry?' :twocents:

No. 186     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 11:18 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:
After all these postings, what comes to my mind is that both SC and P4 should not look for a remarriage if your are true believers in Christ. Your physical helper left, therefore, give full room to the Holy Spirit as your Helper for the rest of your lives.


Almost scriptural for once, Deva, though it should be pointed out, once again, that the OP is not about whether remarriage should be in the picture for a believer, but rather is a believer who abandons a marriage unscripturally a true believer.


Can there be any doubt on this? They are no way in the picture! Should one has to go through that many replies for this fundamental concept?

It only proves that Christianity has gone to dogs! :thumb_dn:
No. 187     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christ   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 7, 2017 at 2:07 PM     
Devaprakash wrote:

Stormchaser wrote:

Devaprakash wrote:
After all these postings, what comes to my mind is that both SC and P4 should not look for a remarriage if your are true believers in Christ. Your physical helper left, therefore, give full room to the Holy Spirit as your Helper for the rest of your lives.


Almost scriptural for once, Deva, though it should be pointed out, once again, that the OP is not about whether remarriage should be in the picture for a believer, but rather is a believer who abandons a marriage unscripturally a true believer.


Can there be any doubt on this? They are no way in the picture! Should one has to go through that many replies for this fundamental concept?



Yes there can, and you should go back and reread post #170 to understand this. You may have missed something about that "fundamental concept."

In actuality, Deva, you and I may hold roughly similar positions on this, but most here will be more in line with what I posted in post #170.
No. 188     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Ch   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 8, 2017 at 4:55 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Yes there can, and you should go back and reread post #170 to understand this. You may have missed something about that "fundamental concept."

In actuality, Deva, you and I may hold roughly similar positions on this, but most here will be more in line with what I posted in post #170.


My reply to #170:

The question of the OP is, "If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?"


The fundamental question would be who is a true Christian? I believe that those who keep reciting ‘my Lord, my Lord’ are not Christians in the first place, or they are simply Sunday goers and goodies gatherers! Those who continuously strive to become perfect or holy are true believers in Christ believing in His way, life and truth.

Matthew 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1 Peter 1
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Those who think that they have salvation tag in their pockets and there is nothing else to done are dead Christians.


I think it has been pretty obvious that I have been heading for a position that essentially is anyone who does such a thing without biblical justification has some major problems with their (lack of) relationship with the Lord. And that has lead me to the current research of what God's Word has to say about apostasy. ]


Bible allows marriage on the following conditions: Wife submissive to husband (accepting the leadership of her husband and with a will and responsibility to build a family) and husband loving and taking care of his wife. If these conditions are not found, then it is not a biblical marriage though it may have been arranged in a church. Such non-biblical marriage is secular in nature, so, I believe, a secular divorce may be understandable from a legal point of view. Nevertheless, remaining single afterwards is the best step. If weak, then another secular marriage can be thought of with its typical chain of problems. The Coptic Christians of Egypt are not allowed to divorce, but may remain separated.

But let's do a sort of U-turn and look at a scripture that seems to indicate a person may desert a marriage without God's permission and still remain a believer.


How can one claim to be a believer contradicting the directive of the will of God? He might have failed in his responsibility, but is he admitting being guilty of that? Is he trying his best to set right the wrong? Wilful disobedience and justification of the wrong will sever any relationship with God.

Why isn't it? Because of 1 Cor. 7:10-11.

In these verses, Scripture is recognizing (or so it seems) that a believer CAN desert a marriage as a mistake ONLY, but yes, it can happen, or rather, in an imperfect and sinful world, it happens.


If one admits a mistake, his endeavour is to rectify it. That is expected of a believer. One cannot justify a mistake or hang on to it.

I see nothing in these verses that gives permission for such desertion to happen, or any implication that such an action can be legitimate, and indeed the idea stated is that it should not (happen), and that if it does, it should be righted as soon as possible. If not righted, then a restriction is laid down until such time it IS righted.


Right

But back to the OP, it seems that one can be a believer, yet by disobedience, desert a marriage.

This obviously is something that Scripture says shouldn't happen, and by implication, is a sin. But we all know, from personal experience, that believers DO sin.


There is no forgiveness for a deliberate and maintained sin. We can only hope for the forgiveness of our past and present sin with confession, repentance and transformation. There is no blanket assurance of forgiveness for any kind of future sins.




No. 189     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Peter4   Gender: M   Age: 43   on  Aug 9, 2017 at 12:48 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Almost scriptural for once, Deva, though it should be pointed out, once again, that the OP is not about whether remarriage should be in the picture for a believer, but rather is a believer who abandons a marriage unscripturally a true believer.



Is a believer who abandons a marriage unscripturally a true believer

My ex-wife claimed she left the marriage Scripturally (even though it was not):

A - She wanted out of her vows and out of her marriage responsibility. She didn't want to deal with it and the responsibility it carried so she worked backwards to justify it.

B - She searched for a reason out of marriage and dug up an argument we had 10+ years ago. She then created a whole theory behind that argument, blew it out of proportion, dramatized it and ran with it.

C - She sought Christian and so-called Christian friends who would find sympathy with her and agree with her position to divorce. Her biggest advocates were her parents who she knew would of course agree with WHATEVER she decided. Parents will stand behind their kids no matter what. (Her brother was a drug addict, he also served felony time for attempted murder, yet the parents are close with him and actually bought him a home & provided financially for him.) So my ex-wife knew that her parents would back her unBiblical decision to divorce me as they stand behind their kids, no matter what.

D - The final piece was that my ex-wife said her heart was listening to God and that God told her to leave and divorce me and that it was OK to do so. Even though the Bible (God's Word) says it was NOT OK by God to divorce.

So my ex-wife said her heart was clear and she felt no guilt or remorse to divorce and that God OK'd her decision to divorce. So she was in God's Will according to her.

That is HOW a Christian can justify an unscriptural divorce and claim a clean heart and theological position.
No. 190     Reply: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christ   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 9, 2017 at 9:58 AM     
Peter4 wrote:



D - The final piece was that my ex-wife said her heart was listening to God and that God told her to leave and divorce me and that it was OK to do so. Even though the Bible (God's Word) says it was NOT OK by God to divorce.

So my ex-wife said her heart was clear and she felt no guilt or remorse to divorce and that God OK'd her decision to divorce. So she was in God's Will according to her.

That is HOW a Christian can justify an unscriptural divorce and claim a clean heart and theological position.


And that is the other half of the OP, the part not mentioned but implied.

So we have the question of the OP:
Is a believer who abandons a marriage unscripturally a true believer?

...and then the implied and obvious follow-up question:
How can a Christian justify an unscriptural divorce and claim a clean heart and theological position?


As to the 2nd question, The observations I offered up for the 1st apply:

  • Spiritual obsession (Watchman Nee)

  • Spiritual delusion ("Lord, lord")

  • Spiritual fakery (Apostasy)


No. 191     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 9, 2017 at 12:04 PM     
- continuing on –

In this study I will at times be quoting sources without necessarily giving credit to them, just to save time, but if you’d like to know the source of any particular statement, just ask and I will identify it.

Hebrews 2:1-3
1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.

2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,

3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard


As it is revealed to us in Hebrews, there are 2 issues:

Authority
Accountability


If we do not have a clear concept of God’s right to rule our lives, if we have no sense of accountability to the divine Word, then the teaching of this passage loses its rhetorical power. This text cannot “speak” to us if we rest comfortably in a self-centered authority that judges all of life in light of one’s own self-actualization rather than according to the will and ways of God. Furthermore, those of us who have preached “once-saved, always-saved” to the neglect of teachings on accountability have done a disservice to the body of Christ and her members, offering an unbalanced view of a right relationship to God. We must never maximize the grace of God to the neglect of the holiness of God and God’s desire for the holiness of his people.

So in considering these truths, we should endeavor to strive for balance, balance of God’s Word, balance of God’s precepts. It is when we get out of balance that we begin to encounter problems of theology.

As an example, we have one individual who preaches God’s forgiveness as an accomplished fact for one and all, but in doing so she ignores other Biblical concepts like God’s holiness and holy character that demands justice. She is totally out of balance yet she justifies her position by only stressing certain scriptures that she likes and obfuscating the others she doesn’t. That is a good example of being out-of-balance.

Getting back to the point, what does it mean to “drift way” from what we have heard (2:1) and to “ignore such a great salvation” (2:3)? A surface reading might lead one to assume the passage speaks tof a non-Christian who drifts by an opportunity for salvation. Yet the author uses the pronoun “we” (v.1), which he consistently employs to address the Christian community.

But if the author is speaking to the Christian community in this text, what does it mean for one to drift from the message of salvation? Does it mean to fall out of fellowship with God, or, more seriously, to lose salvation? It would seem the action involves at least a moving away from the message of salvation. Notice in this passage that it is the message rather than God himself from which they are drifting. Can one drift from the message without drifting from God? From the broader context of Hebrews, the answer to this question is a resounding “no!”

This raises another set of issues: What is the nature of the “punishment” implied in verse 3? What would be “just” (v.2) for one who is drifting? Does this mean punishment in the sense of discipline for a person who still belongs to God, or is it the punishment of excommunication, or is it punishment for an unbeliever who has never known Christ? As we consider the other warning passages in Hebrews later on, we will find that the author is notoriously ambiguous in dealing with certain issues.
No. 192     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 11:16 AM     
Just some odds & ends (on Warning #1) in the next couple of posts from the other Hebrews commentary (The Bible Speaks Today series) that I picked up from my vacation visit to the Christian conference center in Northern Michigan in June.


Heb. 2:2 describes the “law ordained by angels”, and in what proved to be his last sermon Stephen describes his hostile listeners as those “who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.” If the angels’ message had to be obeyed, how much more the Son’s word with its good news of such a great salvation. Hughes expresses the warning in these terms: “if the breakers of the law did not go unpunished, certainly despisers of the gospel cannot expect to do so.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus declared his word to those who were easily robbed of its message, easily deflected by adversity, or easily preoccupied by either anxiety or avarice.

15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.
16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.
17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word,
19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
Mk. 4:15-19

My study Bible has an interesting notation on this passage –

“The various soils represent human hearts. The inhospitable hearts in the parable gradually become more receptive (from indifferent, to opportunistic, to very interested), but nevertheless remain preoccupied with the cares of their present life in rebellion against God’s true purposes. (The ESV Study Bible).

And then commentary on v.20...

He (Christ) also declared it to people who were delighted to accept it, ready to obey it, and eager to believe it. We must have a similar response if we are not to drift along in life without aim and purpose.

20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold. Mk. 4:20

And back to my study Bible – “The good soil represents a consistently attentive and accepting heart.”


One thing I am presently learning that whether or not an apostate can lose his salvation, he certainly will be punished to whatever degree. Scripture seems to be clear by implication about that.
No. 193     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 12:03 PM     
All this can merely be cerebral, but God's Word to us is meant to be useful in real life also...call it application.

So let's look back at the person who inspired this thread, and once again let's state that the intention is not to vilify her but rather to understand her position in Christ.

In the previous post, we discussed “if the breakers of the law did not go unpunished, certainly despisers of the gospel cannot expect to do so.”

We also discussed “The various soils represent human hearts. The inhospitable hearts in the parable gradually become more receptive (from indifferent, to opportunistic, to very interested), but nevertheless remain preoccupied with the cares of their present life in rebellion against God’s true purposes."

Do you recall the visible testimony of my ex-wife, supposed wonderful Christian woman, a Prov. 31 woman?

Take another look at her 'fruits' -


Lies
Deceptions
Disobedience
Control
Manipulations
Moral Failure
Dishonor
Lawsuits
Theft (of children; prosperity)
Treason
Desertion
Murder (of the marriage)


I don't know about you, but from the evidence of this list, the evidence of her lifestyle, I'd say her 'soil' is seeped with the cares of this world, i.e. an apostate, as previously identified.

What about others in the church you attend, or family members who call themselves Christian? If their lifestyles are "drifting" could they possibly have never made a full commitment to Christ, and are allowing the cares of the world to decide the direction of their 'ship'?

More to the point of the OP, are these 'believers' who walk out of a marriage engaged in holy living and commitment to Christ...or are they engaged in the cares of the world, no matter how legitimate such cares may appear?

What is the testimony of these deserters? What are their actions? Forget about their excuses - examine both their subsequent and consequent actions to their specific ACTION (marital desertion) and compare them to how God's Word says we should be living.

What conclusions can then be made?

No. 194     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Devaprakash   Gender: M   Age: 73   on  Aug 10, 2017 at 8:51 PM     
Marriage has never been glorified in the entire NT, nor it is advocated. Anything related to that is not worthy of a long discussion for spiritual considerations.

We are not busybodies to work on trifle matters. No use making a mountain out of a molehill!

:wavey:
No. 195     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 11, 2017 at 10:32 AM     
One more thought on this odds & ends section of Heb. 2:1-3.

I’ve mentioned previously of some sidebar issues such as OSAS and Universalism. Here is some additional commentary from these verses that address Universalism.

The judgment of Christ

“One of the ways in which the message of the gospel has become distorted, in recent decades particularly, has been by the presentation of ‘universalism’. J.A.T. Robinson asks, ‘May we not imagine a love so strong that ultimately no one will be able to restrain himself from free and grateful surrender?’ He is persuaded that ‘hell is an ultimate impossibility, because already there is no one outside Christ’…’The world has been redeemed. Hell has been harrowed, and none can finally make it their home.’

This teaching ignores or explains away the serious, warning passages of Scripture about man’s accountability to God and suggests that, because God is love, ultimately and inevitably all people will be saved. Such a message can only be described as a most serious misrepresentation of New Testament teaching. It springs from a totally unbalanced doctrine of God, Christ, man, sin, and its eternal consequences. This passage in Hebrews talks plainly about the just retribution of those who disobeyed God’s word and goes on to ask how we can possibly escape even more serious punishment if we deliberately choose to reject Christ and his great salvation. Emphasizing Christ’s mercy and generous pardon, a great deal if universalist teaching ignores the fact that the judgment-theme figures prominently in the preaching of Jesus himself. * It was because of his perfect love for lost mankind that Christ spoke so directly and unmistakably about our accountability to God. He talked about hell as well as heaven. Men and women cannot hope to escape from a just retribution if they disregard the Christ who made their salvation possible and who ultimately will be their judge. Leon Morris has reminded us that man’s response to these great truths determines our destiny: ‘This Epistle leaves us in no doubt but that those who are saved are saved from a sore and genuine peril. Christ’s saving work is not a piece of emotional pageantry rescuing men from nothing in particular.’”

* Mt.5:29-30; 8:11-12; Jn.3:16-18 ,36


As I mentioned earlier, it is easy for one to get unbalanced in their theology, and when that happens, a substitute message can be created; created by man and not by God. Obviously in the case of the universalist doctrine, it is by ignoring or explaining away some verses in favor of others.

In the case of the apostate, the unbalance results from a substitute lifestyle, one focused on the cares of the world rather than the cares of the Kingdom of God.
No. 196     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 12, 2017 at 9:03 AM     
Let's continue on...

1998 – Destruction of marriage
1998–2008 – PHASE ONE - Covenant Understanding - Decade of bewilderment, suffering, growing desire to understand.
2012-13 (approx.) - PHASE TWO - Obsession
2016 – PHASE THREE – The ‘Lord, Lord’ people
2017 – PHASE FOUR – Apostasy (pt. 1)
2017 - PHASE FOUR - Apostasy (pt. 2)


THE WARNINGS OF HEBREWS

(Any scriptural references with the number 8 in them have been typed in bold in order to get rid of the smiley face icon that instead appears)

Warning #2:
The Danger of Doubting

(Hebrews 3-4)

The first danger was the danger of drifting. This is just going along with the crowd and with the currents and pressures of this world’s system which will move you away from the truth. It is possible to wake up some day and find that you are not with God’s people nor with the truth at all. You have drifted from the truth because of an indifference to it. While you came to the truth, it never became something to which you anchored yourself. The truth will never change, but we can change, and this is the danger. It is possible to come to Calvary and be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ and then drift away from this position because of indifference to the things of the Lord. It is the first danger in the Christian life.

Having stated this danger, the writer of Hebrews resumes the truth that Jesus Christ is greater than the angels. Having previously shown the Son to be superior to angels in His Deity as the Son of God (1:4-14), he now shows that He is superior to angels in His humanity as the Son of man (2:5-18). God’s purpose for man is given in 2:5-8. It is to subject the world to man, not angels. This is why the Garden of Eden was given to man to rule. This was God’s will.

Proof that this is still God’s will and program and that this will yet be accomplished, is Jesus’ place today (2:9). “Jesus” is the Lord’s human name. He is the Lord’s “man” to rule the world to come, i.e., the millennium. Provision was made by Christ in His humanity that this might be accomplished (2:10-18). He has defeated Satan already at the cross.

Note the outline:

A. Superiority of the Son to Angels (1:4-2:18).

1. In His Deity as the Son of God (1:4-14).

2. In His Humanity as the Son of man (2:5-18).

B. Superiority of the Son to Moses (3:1-6).

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end (Hebrews 3:1-6).

This is the new truth, and from it the writer will draw a new warning. Christ is shown to be superior to Moses in at least four ways.


  • Christ was the builder or creator of the House of Israel; Moses was a part of the house or a creature (3:3).

  • Christ was over it (3:6); Moses was in it (3:5).

  • Christ was as a Son (3:6); Moses was as a servant (3:6).

  • Christ was the revealer; Moses testified to a revelation (3:5b).


Not only had One spoken who was greater than angels, but One had spoken who was greater than Moses. Just as God spoke through angels and every word was true; so God spoke through Moses and every word was true. This brings us to the second danger, and the writer of Hebrews stops to give the warning to the Hebrew Christians that they do not fail as their fathers failed.


1. ILLUSTRATION (3:7-19)


7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me, And saw My works for forty years. 10 "Therefore I was angry with this generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart; And they did not know My ways'; 11 As I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.'" 12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end; 15 while it is said, "Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me." 16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief (Hebrews 3:7-19).

Israel was redeemed out of Egypt from bondage and slavery. They were redeemed by the blood of the Passover lamb, and by the power of God. God brought them out; they did not liberate themselves. This redemption was His work, and He received the glory. It was glorious that Israel was redeemed out of Egypt; the tragedy is that they perished in the wilderness.

a. Explanation: How Israel failed (3:7-11).


Verses 1-6 give the faithfulness of Moses and the Messiah. Now we are shown the unfaithfulness of the children of Israel at the time of Moses, and the danger of unfaithfulness for the church at this present time.

The provocation (3:8) was the rebellion at Meribah given in Numbers 20:13. It was at the end of the wilderness experience. The temptation (3:8) was the rebellion at Massah recorded in Exodus 17:7, and was their experience at the beginning. From the beginning to the end, Israel provoked the Lord.

The result was not entering into rest (Heb. 3:10-11). They never entered into the promised land. Now we must realize that the promised land was never a picture of heaven. It was a picture of rest, and this generation that was saved out of Egypt by God’s grace and power never entered into this life of rest.

The point is this: A redeemed people may lose blessings which depend on continuing faith to enjoy. It is not enough to be saved by faith. “The just shall live by faith.” If God’s people cease to live by faith, they cease to live a life of blessing in time.

Being “saved” gives us rest of conscience, and we have peace with God. “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). But then we can go on and enter into the rest of heart and have the peace from God.

“In nothing be anxious, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts, and minds through Christ Jesus” (Phil. 4:6).

The difference is the difference in rest between Matthew 11:28 and 29: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.”

The first is positional; the second is experiential.

b. Application (3:12-15)


The experience of Israel was not written down for them, for their mistakes being written down never helped then one bit. It is written for us. We are to take heed lest this same thing be in us in departing from the living God. “Departing” signifies a standing off from a former belief. Formerly it was what God said through Moses. Now it is what God says through the Son: we come to Him and we are saved by Him, but then we can “depart” from Him in time.

Verse 13 tells us what we are to do when we discover this in the assembly. We are not to condemn nor condone. We are to exhort one another by love and good works (cf. Heb. 10:24).

The word “hardened” means callused. It comes through the result of repeated irritations. There is callus for the hands and feet, but there is also a callus for the heart. We are never the same when we fail to respond to the Spirit’s wooing. Failing to respond always produces hardening. This is a terrible thing. It is the end product of an evil heart (cf. 3:12). The end result is no longer any sensitivity to the wooing of the Spirit.

c. Interpretation (3:16-19
)

Here is the route sin takes. The very people God rescued, provoked Him. There are three questions in verses 16, 17, 18, and these give us the three stages of their sinful attitude.

Unbelief —————> Hardness ——————> Judgment

An attitude of unbelief issued into a manifestation of complaining and this issued into divine discipline upon then from God. The road is always the same. It begins with an attitude, manifests itself in action and culminates in God having to judge.

Then the danger is that we will also defect from the life of faith. Basically we are no different from Israel. The same thing that happened to her can happen to us. First, the children of Israel who were redeemed at Sinai drifted from the truth and made a golden calf and 3,000 died. Then 38 wasted years were experienced in the wilderness while one generation, who accepted His salvation, perished in the wilderness because they refused to continue a life of faith and enter into the promised land. There were 603,550 men of war. Of these 603,548 died in the wilderness.

This meant that every day spent in the wilderness saw nearly 44 military funerals besides all of the civilians who died. These graves are a warning to Christians. It can happen to us too. It can happen here.


2. THE ENCOURAGEMENT (4:1-10)

1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has thus said somewhere concerning the seventh day, "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this passage, "They shall not enter My rest." 6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His (Hebrews 4:1-10).

The promise of entering into rest was “left behind to another generation” (4:1). This entering into rest was not the experience of crossing the Red Sea, which experience was salvation by blood and power. This promise was that of crossing the Jordan River. The danger was to perish in the wilderness, rather than that we would not leave Egypt. It was a danger only for those who were saved.

It was 38 years after Israel was redeemed that Moses pleads with the new generation. The record of that plea is the book of Deuteronomy.

It is now 38 years after Pentecost for the church. It is a second generation of believers. They are facing a momentous decision. The Lord Himself is pleading with them not to fail. The record of that pleading is the book of Hebrews.

There was the word of the report given to the nation in the Old Testament by twelve men. The same situation exists today. What are we going to do with the Word of the report (verse 2)?

4:3 The rest of creation is a quality of life enjoyed by God.

4:8 The rest Joshua gave them was only the type. The antitype or fulfillment still remains.

4:9 That life rest: (1) Is provided by God. (2) Is available today. (3) May be entered into by faith.


3. THE EXHORTATION (4:11-13)


11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do (Hebrews 4:11-13).

It is not enough to merely know these things. There must be positive action. Disobedience and unbelief will rob us of rest (4:11). God gives us something to search out our hearts. (1) The Word of God (4:12-13). A living, active, sharp, critic. It can cut that callus off where nothing else will. (2) God Himself (4:13; cf. Job 34:21 “For his eyes are upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings.”

For all of us who are saved, there is a Jordan River for us to cross. it is an issue between us and the Lord. Will we do His will completely by faith, or will we not? We do one of two things when we come to this point in our lives: we rebel or we surrender. What will it be for you?

“Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief” (Heb. 4:11).

That fall was physical death.
No. 197     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 13, 2017 at 1:18 PM     
Looking at the commentary in the previous post, I am beginning to think that very possibly that those whom are known in Scripture as 'apostates,' or rather the term itself, might well have a wider application than just in a believer-only vs. almost believer-only paradigm.

After all, in the case of the First Warning, "drifting" can happen to honest believers also, can it not? So could the warnings of apostasy apply to both? But what about the warnings of Hebrews being directed to believers (only)?

One answer I've encountered is that yes, although the warnings were made to gatherings of believers, in any such gatherings there are always those who are not believers. This might not apply to the house churches of the NT as those small communities were most likely believers only, but certainly there were times when larger gatherings occurred.

So believers can 'drift'.

And then those who have found some comfort in being with believers can (and often do) drift away also.

Perhaps both can be known as 'apostates,' though common definitions of the word seem to be limited to the 2nd catagory above. But maybe God is not all that concerned with our 'common' designations.

And then I go back to the example of my own experience. While I was married, both my wife and I were very much indeed involved with the 'cares of the world.' We raised our kids. We took them to church. We changed diapers. We attended school activities with the kids.

Where was our devotion to the Lord Himself in all of this? Honestly, it was very limited. You could probably say we drifted, focusing instead on the cares of our daily living demands.

The difference between us, of course, is who was really in God's grip and who wasn't. Who came out or ended up intact as a consecrated believer, and whom ended up with a horrible list of personal wrongdoing. I'm not attempting to raise myself above my wife - we both drifted from our core commitment - I'm only pointing out again what our lifestyles ended up proving to any who might be watching.
No. 198     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 13, 2017 at 1:38 PM     
So with the 2nd Warning of Hebrews in post #196. We have first been warned about 'drifting'; now we are warned about 'doubting,' and becoming hardened.

"The word “hardened” means callused. It comes through the result of repeated irritations. There is callus for the hands and feet, but there is also a callus for the heart. We are never the same when we fail to respond to the Spirit’s wooing. Failing to respond always produces hardening. This is a terrible thing. It is the end product of an evil heart (cf. 3:12). The end result is no longer any sensitivity to the wooing of the Spirit."

"Here is the route sin takes. The very people God rescued, provoked Him. There are three questions in verses 16, 17, 18, and these give us the three stages of their sinful attitude."

Unbelief —————> Hardness ——————> Judgment

Obviously this involves a further degradation of our faith and commitment.

"An attitude of unbelief issued into a manifestation of complaining and this issued into divine discipline upon then from God. The road is always the same. It begins with an attitude, manifests itself in action and culminates in God having to judge.

Then the danger is that we will also defect from the life of faith."

And then this commentary, which I find highly worthy of contemplation...

"The promise of entering into rest was “left behind to another generation” (4:1). This entering into rest was not the experience of crossing the Red Sea, which experience was salvation by blood and power. This promise was that of crossing the Jordan River. The danger was to perish in the wilderness, rather than that we would not leave Egypt. It was a danger only for those who were saved."

Could it be that we as Christians are too consumed with crossing the Red Sea, an act already achieved (positional), yet we ignore or give little heed about the consequent necessity of crossing the Jordan River (experiential), and we miss out on the rest that God has for us?

"For all of us who are saved, there is a Jordan River for us to cross. it is an issue between us and the Lord. Will we do His will completely by faith, or will we not? We do one of two things when we come to this point in our lives: we rebel or we surrender. What will it be for you?"
No. 199     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 13, 2017 at 2:24 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:



Here is the route sin takes. The very people God rescued, provoked Him. There are three questions in verses 16, 17, 18, and these give us the three stages of their sinful attitude.

Unbelief —————> Hardness ——————> Judgment

An attitude of unbelief issued into a manifestation of complaining and this issued into divine discipline upon then from God. The road is always the same. It begins with an attitude, manifests itself in action and culminates in God having to judge.

Then the danger is that we will also defect from the life of faith.


Attitude.

And some further application, directed to a conversation over on the General forum, 'Christian or not' thread...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verbatim said: A lot of this arguing, fuzzing, fighting, attacking and contention is due to, "lack of knowledge" and "perverted attitudes." No repentance.

CAsandie responded: I'd agree, but I'd identify 'immaturity' as one of the perverted attitudes that might run rampant here on MC that might lead to a lack of repentance and a contrite soul, as well as self righteousness(over the Lord's righteousness) and worrying about things we need not worry about (which can cause us to sin and at times fail to realize it).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever else this conversation may be addressing, the specific interest for this thread is that of attitude. Attitude precedes action, and action precedes judgment.

"An attitude of unbelief issued into a manifestation of complaining and this issued into divine discipline upon then from God. The road is always the same. It begins with an attitude, manifests itself in action and culminates in God having to judge.

Then the danger is that we will also defect from the life of faith."
No. 200     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 10:44 AM     
Storm? You are using something I wrote in GD here? If so, then what I wrote on the actual topic of 'Christian or not' is this:

Who is Christian or not?

Philippians 2:12 ... continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure.

One will never find peace if running around chasing one's tail seeking harm against another (I believe this fully).

It's not a matter of 'just' stopping though RPM, but purifying one's own thoughts so that they might honor the "Lord" and not one's flesh.

The mind is powerful 'if' used for Good and 'destructive' if used for bad, but an obsessive grudge or hate is not good for anyone's 'focus.' Heal if hurt and seek good for enemies (who 9 times out of 10 was created in one's mind over that of any actual adversary).

It is for certain the Lord is in charge and all shall reap what they sow. If this is not believed -- then 'honor' to the Lord and the purpose of the offense of the cross has ceased in one's heart. Christ said: forgive them Father for they know not what they do...

Does anyone find themselves greater than the Lord that we act beyond what the Lord Himself did when crucified (and I ask this of myself today as well)?

God Bless


Now on the very similar topic of this thread:

(in what I quoted of myself above, it could be better stated that -- one is chasing 'their own' tail if wishing or seeking harm in hurt or with anger against another).

Before you start in saying ... it's not what this thread is about, yes, I admit I've only skimmed (I'm not following/reading your posts in depth as I find a wrong 'attitude' myself here, personally). I've not endured divorce, but I've endured heart break to where I believed it would kill me. I've vented and in the end found that 'love' covers a multitude of sins and decided to love the other regardless of heart break and move on with Christ's teachings of 'love' (not bitterness, not being scorned and removing the scar from my heart). If that is what you seek here -- then forgive me for not understanding the methodology used.

We have a King Who is Worthy to judge the 'fullness' of one's relationship with the Lord (that is personal between the two). I think it's unhealthy to dwell too deeply on sorrows that this chaotic world brings us (and yes, I've fell guilty of this.

Nobody held a gun to anyone's head and said marry or die, so we make decisions that we are accountable for in life and at times these lead to regrets, but remaining 'stagnant' in any hard feelings can lead to sin.

It's really simple in regards to marriages ending:

A man or woman might fall out of love with another (maybe it was not 'true' love to begin with in that case). My brother and his wife reaching 30 yaers of marriage suggest a couple must keep falling back and deeper in love with the other (and this is the best marriage I've witnessed/known in my lifetime). Yet in marriages that end, I note the same thing: they just can't stand the other/hate forms over that of love (I've witnessed it so much and it's one of the fears I've had in marrying. To witness love turning into hate is awful. It happens in other relationships/friendships too and we have to move on. There are no other choices with a person who is caught up in the snare of hate/the snare of sin.

I just wouldn't harbor too long in the other's wrong as it can lead to our own snare by satan (and we ourselves are participating in hate/seeking the destruction of the other/ etc.).

The 'leaving/sinning' spouse who leaves will form justifications for the reasons for divorce. They also might fall to their knees in repentance behind the scenes.

I've seen both. I tend to agree with Devaprakash here in this thread. If it takes so long to build a 'case' for a 'judgement' then it is likely not a strong case. There are people dying today in missionary services that get less mindful time, but deserve greater 'thought' in life, imho.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Think on These Things
4:7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Philippians



Say what you must and I know you MUST, Storm (and be sure to address an audience over that of myself ... just don't take quotes from other places that I might write that could suggest support here of your views or ideas).

In accordance with your last post here to me personally -- you are I disagree here if you are stating a spouse who leaves a marriage without Biblical justification is not a Christian (they are in sin alone and the ultimate judgement of their relationship with God is with God). Our Stewardship with Christ must expand beyond the physical desire of marriage and in Christ alone (regardless of marriage or not and we must remain active in Him [not self pity, judgements of others or anything else that can lead us, ourselves to sin).


No. 201     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 12:58 PM     
Just a few responses to this:

CAsandie wrote:

"One will never find peace if running around chasing one's tail seeking harm against another (I believe this fully)."

Though you did mention that this quote is from your GF thread, the fact that you felt you had to make mention of it here indicates you think it implies that I am saying you agree with me. That is false; I used the quote for relevancy, not supporting evidence. You still seem to be of the mindset that I am vilifying my ex for personal reasons.

I don't need to. Scripture says "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." I don't need to drag her down here to find support or verification or whatever you might think my needs might be. Why? Because I have turned her actions over to the Living God; vengeance is His. He will repay.

Now you continue to hold your own counter-opinion to that, and that doesn't really bother me. The fact that you continually bring it up suggests you may have some issues of your own, and again, that is 'fine' in the sense that it has no real bearing on the purposes of this thread. Yet still you post like it does. So yes, you have an opinion, So do I, and my opinion is that you have some personal and maybe hidden issues that force you to keep bringing it up, even though you have done so several times. So be it. I'd prefer to hear your views on the actual topic, as I greatly respect your intelligence and input, but I guess when you're in a rut, then you're in a rut.

"The 'leaving/sinning' spouse who leaves will form justifications for the reasons for divorce. They also might fall to their knees in repentance behind the scenes."

Better, and more on-topic, but the idea of repentance "behind the scenes" is not Biblical. 'Apologetical' can be behind the scenes, as it only requires the offending one to feel remorse, and I've already covered why 'remorse' has no bearing on repentance or making things right with brethren. As example and relevant to this thread, my ex may or not be remorseful. I really don't know as she has never indicated she is. But is she repentant? That I do know, for if she'd be truly repentant it would require her to square things off with those she offended against, i.e. myself. She has never done so, which is a clear indication she is not (repentant). That would be the Biblical understanding. That is the action I took with her. But did she do so with me? Ho, Ho, Ho!

"I've seen both. I tend to agree with Devaprakash here in this thread. If it takes so long to build a 'case' for a 'judgement' then it is likely not a strong case."

The 'case' as you call it has already been built, and I have given my opinion on it many, many posts ago. Judgment will be given by God. Temporary judgment, of a sort, has already been accomplished - first by my ex and her desertion from the marriage, and by myself for not allowing further manipulations as best as I could (no lawsuits were filed by me) and deciding to go on with life.

The present continuance of this thread is more of a continuing Bible study, if you want to call it that, of what I am learning in my ongoing studies and sharing them with you all. So the subject of 'apostasy' has come up and I am diving into it. You mentioned judgment, but the current focus has become on punishment. No doubt you will attempt to construct some negative influence from that also, but the reality is that the current sources I am using (commentaries on Hebrews) are addressing that from the Book of Hebrews, not the Book of Stormchaser.

So it's not about me, though I get the idea from your various posts that it IS about you.

"Say what you must and I know you MUST, Storm (and be sure to address an audience over that of myself ..."

Kind of what I get from you.

"Just don't take quotes from other places that I might write that could suggest support here of your views or ideas)."

And this is why I myself think that your posts are all about you. I didn't just quote you (and let's be clear with everyone reading this - I quoted a conversation between Verbatim & CAsandie, NOT just about what Sandie said -
yet she takes issue with it and thinks I tried to make her own quote as support for my position). I get it why you think it's all about you, just like you don't get it you are wrong. I quoted the conversation as relevant, not a justification. But as much as I do appreciate your insights at times, there are many times you seem to live in a bubble that you can't seem to get out of.

"In accordance with your last post here to me personally -- you are I disagree here if you are stating a spouse who leaves a marriage without Biblical justification is not a Christian ."

I've said no such thing. The purpose of this thread was to discuss the issue, not to make pronouncements that properly remain in God's purview.

My purpose in my response(s) to your various posts, Sandie, is not to hammer down on you, as you have suggested a time or two, or to upset you, but to correct your mistaken impressions and yes, opinions. You seem to focus on personal impressions (of me) and though that might be acceptable one time only, you really haven't gotten the message that the thread subject is meant to be on what Scripture teaches, rather than on how Stormchaser really doesn't understand forgiveness, CAsandie-style.

You even have mentioned it yourself, "Before you start in saying ... it's not what this thread is about, yes, I admit I've only skimmed".

Exactly. You've just told one and all that you're not all that into the thread topic. And that's fine, but you also have confirmed that what interest you do have is pretty much of your own agenda (forgiveness is all you need to give), plus now taking umbrage over someone quoting you. NOTE to CAsandie, if you don't wish to be quoted, DON'T POST PUBLICLY. It's that simple.

Finally, and here's the sad thing, Sandie. You have done this many times, to many people, and they have also brought up this little problem you have. Yet EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. you have responded with a personal defense that you are not guilty (of being in your little bubble) and that you are only arguing from a Biblical perspective. So now you will once again ignore this, go away mad and upset at me, and you will still ignore that YOU could have problems of your own.
No. 202     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 1:21 PM     

Storm -- Personal attacks on this website are a weakness. Nothing more. I've been guilty of them myself, so I'm not going to spend my time addressing them or dishing out the same.

As stated originally, I would prefer 'nothing' I say in GD or elsewhere to be used for any support of your main thesis here which as stated I disagree with on several Christian principles (said more clearly and I pray not to harsh):

1. Marriages are sacred (it's not my business to assess another's Christianity based on something private).

2. As far as 'personal life divorce specifics' (which admittedly I did not read fully, but skimmed) -- there are two sides of every story and when we analyze only 'our' side ... it is self serving.

3. As far as Biblical concerns. Yes, one is in sin if not feeling they can sustain their vow to God because they are miserable in a marriage. The Scripture of casting the first stone is relevant in any judgments made on the offending party. Case closed (at least in the bubble I live in).

4. (my non-Biblical "agenda" or "message" here is a desire to see healing of wrongs. Healing is essential to move on and focus upon that which is greater (allowing other's 'wrongs' to rent too much space in our brain does not allow for healing). The Lord's prayer comes to mind and seeking His Kingdom over creating our own.


I believe it is a waste of time to spend any great length of time convicting a person of a sin rather than focusing on Christ Himself and seeking His Peace that only He (not convicting another of sin) can give us. What we 'dwell' upon is either beneficial or not. I find this form of dwelling in pain -- not profitable.

You might not agree, but my agenda is to be helpful and has nothing to do with personal attacks or a lack of caring or understanding...and 'no' -- I do not believe anyone who has contributed here has been off-topic.

I do however understand this thread might be therapeutic in some way 'not' understood by me though at this time (and maybe never).

mod: typos/clarity (after reading the response fully)
No. 203     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 1:27 PM     
Sandie, if you would avoid the personal references and stay on-topic, I would welcome that. I really do appreciate your intelligence and yes, your opinions when you stay on-topic (and admittedly, when you don't repeat them incessantly).
No. 204     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 1:43 PM     
Storm -- Your topic is rather confusing to me 'if' you don't think I'm hitting the topic here. I want to address something you wrote though that you said is 'more' on topic:

Storm wrote: Better, and more on-topic, but the idea of repentance "behind the scenes" is not Biblical. 'Apologetical' can be behind the scenes, as it only requires the offending one to feel remorse, and I've already covered why 'remorse' has no bearing on repentance or making things right with brethren.


Again as I started early in posting here: Consider King David. At times we can not 'make things right,' but feeling 'remorse' is a 'heart felt' repentance (if the remorse is true). Taken from Psalms:

Psalm 51:1-4,7-17 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your loving kindness: according to the multitude of your tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Storm, I think others might see this thread differently as far as the topic (since other members are stating the same as me in this thread). My words aimed to help/not injure.

I pray for God's healing upon all (when I'm not in my bubble that is)!

No. 205     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 7:51 PM     
CAsandie wrote:



I want to address something you wrote though that you said is 'more' on topic:

Storm wrote: Better, and more on-topic, but the idea of repentance "behind the scenes" is not Biblical. 'Apologetical' can be behind the scenes, as it only requires the offending one to feel remorse, and I've already covered why 'remorse' has no bearing on repentance or making things right with brethren.


Again as I started early in posting here: King David. At times we can not 'make things right,' but feeling 'remorse' is a 'heart felt' repentance (if the remorse is true).

Taken from Psalms:

Psalm 51:1-4,7-17 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your loving kindness: according to the multitude of your tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.




Personally, I'd call that conviction.
No. 206     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Aug 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM     

Storm -- I do agree on your thought of self conviction above. We don't always get to see writings of such and we don't know when another's remorse or repentance is 'real.' God does.

Modified: because I've deleted the rest of my post as for wasting my time -- I have modified my post above and clarified my objections held about this thread hopefully fairly clearly (it's not an agenda or message for forgiveness solely, although I do support forgiveness for healing).
No. 207     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 15, 2017 at 10:41 AM     
CAsandie wrote:



I think 'eros' often comes with a box of emotions. That box at times is so full that the couple might never say what is truly upon their heart (there is pride, anger and things that might get in the way), but we all if we believe have those hours alone with the Lord in prayer in which we must address our doings in life.

It is why I believe prayer is so vital in marriages (albeit off topic), but to my own notice I find in times of distress, prayer is 'not shared.' Whose fault is this? The husband's - the wife's (both)?




Good observation(s). One thing that the Lord has recently reminded me of is that while the marriage was intact, and the cares of the world occupied our time, there was little of anything like daily prayer together (or individually, for that matter).

Whose fault was that? I'd have to take credit, for the man is supposed to be the spiritual leader, yet I failed to do so in this regard.

As a Christian, prayer has never been one of my strong suits, and that is lamentable, but for my marriage, the lack of it, esp. together, did its part to destabilize it.

Even today I at times struggle to have a daily prayer life. When I do, things go well for me generally and my happiness quotient is high . When I fall off the wagon, things are not so great.

So I am hopefully making it quite clear that I do not hold my ex accountable for the marriage going south. We both contributed to that. I do hold her accountable for not 'sticking' and working things out, for the conditions at that point were very favorable, from her point of view, to do so.

She instead chose to proceed to judgment, instead of repentance, and desertion, which has lead to the question of the OP of this thread, not necessarily directed at her personally, but rather the position of such a person who has made the choices (actions) that she has made.
No. 208     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 15, 2017 at 11:26 AM     
…continuing on…

“Continuing with another sober word of warning, in Heb. 3:14 the author writes ’We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end of the confidence we had at first.’ At 3:1 the author addresses the community as ‘sharers of the heavenly calling,’ but in 3:14 he places a condition on that designation. The proposition ‘we have come to share in Christ’ translates a Greek clause more literally rendered with ‘we have become sharers [or companions,[metochoi] of Christ” (cf. 3:1). The verb translated “have come” (gegonamen) is a perfect tense form and may be interpreted as focusing on a present state of being; that is, ‘we have become in the past and, therefore, are sharers…’ As in 3:1, to ‘share in’ means simply to experience a relationship with a companion, namely, Christ – to be part of ‘his house’ (3:6).

What then of the condition? The word for ‘if’ is eanper, and in the New Testament literature only Hebrews uses this word. The condition placed on being companions of Christ has to do with holding ‘firmly…the confidence we had at first.’ The word translated ‘hold’ in 3:14 is the same as that used in 3:6 but here ‘firmly’ is added. This word was used to refer to what was solid, durable, valid, confirmed, or guaranteed.. In a legal or business sense it connoted the stability of a contractual relationship. It was something on which one could depend, and it speaks here of the dependability or firmness of the Christian’s commitment, a commitment that had been expressed with assurance at the inception of each believer’s relationship with the Lord. Thus, real Christian experience contains the quality of durability, lasting ‘till the end’ – a reference to the death of the one holding the confidence or to the time when Christ returns (9:28).

The unit concludes with a summary statement in 3:19, explaining that at its core the wanderers’ inability to enter God’s rest stemmed from their unbelief, thus linking the concepts of unbelief and disobedience (cf. Num. 17:11,, Deut. 9:23, Ps. 78:22, 32).”

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it seems from this commentary that-

unbelief = not holding "firmly...to the end"

Unbelief also equals "hardness" of heart.


And applying that warning to the OP, the question begs to be asked, is the believer who abandons a marriage (and remains in that condition) guilty of 'not holding firmly to the end'?

Isn't marriage meant to be for life? If so, when someone deserts it (and we DO know that even believers can do so), and does not return, are they not culpable?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

culpable:

adjective

1. deserving blame or censure; blameworthy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And one more example from personal experience -

Even when my marriage was going downhill, one thing I depended on was my spouse's commitment to the Lord, I knew she would never abandon the marital relationship, as I knew she would never desert the Lord. Yet now I read statements like this quote and I have to wonder...

"This word was used to refer to what was solid, durable, valid, confirmed, or guaranteed.. In a legal or business sense it connoted the stability of a contractual relationship. It was something on which one could depend, and it speaks here of the dependability or firmness of the Christian’s commitment, a commitment that had been expressed with assurance at the inception of each believer’s relationship with the Lord."
No. 209     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 16, 2017 at 1:55 PM     
Warning #2 cont.

Stormchaser wrote:

“Continuing with another sober word of warning, in Heb. 3:14 the author writes ’We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end of the confidence we had at first.’


Scripture gives us any number of conditional clauses, clauses that seem to be ignored by many when quoting them.

In analyzing the details of Heb. 3:1-19 the student encounters certain tensions in the author’s perspective on his audience. He addresses them as sharers “in the heavenly calling” in verse 1 only to put a condition on that designation in verse 14; “We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.” He refers to the community as Jesus’ “house” in verse 6, but then immediately qualifies that affirmation with “if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.”

It has been demonstrated that to be part of Jesus’ “house” and to be a “sharer” of him are references to the hearers as Christians. That the author understands this to be their state of existence finds support in his various references to them. He speaks of them as “holy brothers” (3:1), those who “share in the heavenly calling” (3:1), “dear friends” who manifest things accompanying salvation (6:9), and those who had made a Christian confession (3:1; 4:14; 10:23). He also indicates that they are those who have suffered for the Christian faith in the past (10:32), who are “sons” of God (12:5-13), who have come to Mount Zion (12:22-24), and who are part of the community of “saints” (13:24). These are a few of his designations for the people in the community to which he is writing. Thus based on the broader context, when the author refers to them as Jesus’ house in 3:6 and as those who “share in Christ” in 3:14, he seems to affirm a present reality; he is addressing a group of Christ-followers.

With that in mind, let’s go back to the conditional statements.

The reference to the congregation corporately as Christians is followed by a qualification.

In effect the author says, “Point A is true, if point B is true”; that is, we are Christ’s house, providing that we hold on to…; we have come to be sharers with Christ, if we hold firmly till the end…The closest parallels to these constructions as used in Hebrews are found in Paul’s writings. Notice how each statement of fact is followed by a qualification:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom. 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Rom. 8:17
and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Rom. 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided [lit., if] you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

2 Corinthians 13:5b
Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? --unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Col. 1:22 -23 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you are all seeing the implications of this as to the question posed in the OP. Does it appear to you that perseverance is being used as an argument for consideration?

Using these Scriptural qualifications, could we advance the argument that a marital deserter, if he/she perseveres, i.e. comes back, to the marriage, would indeed realize their full standing in Christ?

And if they don't persevere (come back [to the marriage]), what would be their standing in Christ? Does [not coming back] mean they also have not returned to Christ?

Or do we merely ignore these troubling scriptures, as Christians have generally done for centuries, and stick with the tired but simplistic interpretations like OSAS, or one can lose his salvation, or, in this case, Christians are given a pass if they choose to leave a covenanted marital relationship?

Understand, by asking these questions, I am not advocating (at this point) a conclusion. Rather, I am asking some hard questions about our interpretations.

Up to this point, the responses have been limited, but I'd like to hear what you think. Before going on, I may wait a few days for responses, which I do hope come in from all of you. Obviously, I am looking for on-topic responses, specifically any thoughts to the questions just offered.


No. 210     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 18, 2017 at 8:10 PM     
Yoooooo-hoooooo!

So wassup? Do we have suddenly a bunch of shy posters on MC?

Here again are the questions currently being posed for your response -

I hope you are all seeing the implications of this as to the question posed in the OP. Does it appear to you that perseverance is being used as an argument for consideration?

Using these Scriptural qualifications, could we advance the argument that a marital deserter, if he/she perseveres, i.e. comes back, to the marriage, would indeed realize their full standing in Christ?

And if they don't persevere (come back [to the marriage]), what would be their standing in Christ? Does not [coming back] mean they also have not returned to Christ?

Or do we merely ignore these troubling scriptures, as Christians have generally done for centuries, and stick with the tired but simplistic interpretations like OSAS, or one can lose his salvation, or, in this case, Christians are given a pass if they choose to leave a covenanted marital relationship?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to say, I've been learning a TON of stuff with this study of the Warnings of Hebrews. In fact, with having reached only the 2nd Warning, I have enough information to post a conclusion, and I don't think anyone will anticipate exactly what it will be. It's certainly unexpected to myself!

Even so, I'll wait for all the Warnings to check in, so-to-speak. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind (again).

But if you are only skimming these posts, you are really missing a blessing, methinks...not so much from the guru Stormchaser, but from the gleamings I'm getting from these Hebrew commentaries I picked up on vacation in June and am now sharing with you. I haven't even consulted the vast resources of my theological library as of yet (good thing, too, or this thread might go on until the 2nd Coming!).
No. 211     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 19, 2017 at 11:16 AM     
Lol. Ok, I guess we'll have to wait for the final conclusion.



But just to consider some further thoughts about perseverance and persistence, and not just to toot my own horn, but as mentioned, my wife and I during the marital years were pretty much consumed with the cares of the world - raising a family, finances, changing diapers, etc. Spirituality was there, but in all honesty, when it came to the daily grind, it took 2nd place.

But when the rubber met the road, when the refining fires came, who persisted and who did not?

Actions taken give an answer...

You've read about my wife's actions. Pretty much ungodly, the lot of them. Judgmental. Denial. Legal. Uncaring. Self-serving. Self-protecting.

What were my actions? Even when realizing some of the ungodliness of my wife's actions, I still wanted the marriage to continue. When some of the initial consequences of her actions began to come down (we were still together at this point), my attitude was, ok, we're taking some heat but we're still together - we can work this out.

Not to point out my own superior spirituality; it wasn't about that at all. What was it about then? Keeping the marriage intact. My attitude, my actions, were all about that.

Her actions, on the other hand, were pretty much pre-determined, and they centered on...well...HER, and if certain appeasements did not happen, she had pre-planned to desert the relationship...and desert she did.

So where was her perseverance? Where was mine? Who was in God's grip and who wasn't? Whose core commitments survived intact...and whose did not?

Though they may have the appearance of doing so, these questions are not to bolster Stormchaser's godliness. They are meant for reflection of the OP, and not only that, but further reflection of what it really means to be a Christian - the down & dirty of core commitment, if you will.

When the refiner's fire comes, how will you react?
No. 212     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 20, 2017 at 11:43 AM     
Warning #2 cont.

God's word in the present: an earnest appeal (3:12-19
)

12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." 16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

“Our author is not only a gifted expositor; he is a devoted pastor. It is not enough for him to remind his readers of these O.T. narratives and this warning from the Psalter. He presses his message home with compelling earnestness. He is saying in effect: ‘Take care, brothers. That same evil, unbelieving heart which you despised in the ancient Israelites can be in you, in any of you.’ There is no naively optimistic view of human nature in these verses. The situation is serious. Some of these believers might be kept from the eternal and promised homeland, their lasting city, because, like the stubborn, unbelieving Hebrews of earlier centuries, they rebel against the God who loves them. They must take care lest in the oppressive days of persecution, they also fall away from the living God. Notice the grim description in these verses of the human condition without God’s transforming grace and continual help. Our hearts can become rebellious, wayward, ignorant and undiscerning, evil, faithless, hardened, deceived and disobedient. This is a picture not of casual drifters, but deliberate deserters. Take care.

How can these early Christian believers avoid a fate similar to that of the rebellious Hebrew pilgrims of bygone centuries? The author insists that, if we desire to bring our pilgrimage to that great rewarding conclusion which God has prepared for Christians, we must make our glad and obedient response to his word. We are required to hear, believe, obey and share the word of God.

a. Hear the word

His voice must be heard (3:7 15,4:7). On 3 separate occasions the eloquent appeal of Ps. 95 is repeated in this section, obviously for emphasis and in clear recognition of its immense importance We must read the word of God privately and personally meditate on its life-changing message. Each new day demands a fresh appointment with God, made real through systematic Bible reading and prayer. It must not be hurried; we need this daily meeting with God so that we do not neglect ‘the hearing of the word’ in our own hearts and minds’. The Christian who does not make a special point of setting aside in each day a particular time for the cultivation of his spiritual life is not likely to make significant progress in spiritual maturity.”

(As previously mentioned, neither my wife nor myself was doing any great shakes in this area while married. The important thing to note is that she decided to make life-altering decisions (divorce) while in this state, while I did not.)


b. Believe the word

“It is one thing to hear it; it is another to accept its message in responsive faith. The person with the unbelieving heat will certainly fall away from the living God (3:12). If we refuse to accept the living word (4:12), how can we hope to know the living God who is its almighty author? The rebellious Hebrews who failed to enter the land of promise fell in the wilderness because of unbelief. They rendered themselves morally and spiritually incapable of possessing their inheritance, and all because, in their lust for the immediate, they lost their hope in the ultimate.”

(“Rendered themselves morally and spiritually incapable…”

“in their lust for the immediate, they lost their hope…”

Do these statements apply to the spouse who deserts his or her marriage covenant? Give this some thought.)



c. Obey the word

“The word must be not only heard and believed. We must act upon it immediately and unreservedly and express our faith in obedience to its commands. Those who were disobedient lost their reward. The point that is made here is repeated for emphasis in the next chapter; the disobedient Israelites ‘failed to enter because of disobedience’ (4:6), even though initially they received, presumably with enthusiasm, the good news of the glorious future God had prepared for them. But this is not only a disastrous past event; it is a frightening immediate possibility. These believers are later urged to make strenuous progress and stride foward in their Christian pilgrimage so ‘that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience’ (4:11). Obedience is a key idea in the letter. These first-century Christians are exhorted to costly obedience, knowing that even the Lord Jesus enjoyed all the rich status of deity, yet ‘he learned obedience through what he suffered’.”

(Disobedience was one of the many failings of my ex mentioned in the LONG LIST of her actions. Obedience engenders righteous actions. Disobedience engenders self-serving actions).


d. Share the word.

"We have already noticed that our author believes in the vital role of the Christian community. Here he makes it unmistakably clear that as sons, brothers and children, they stand in daily need of corporate encouragement and exhortation. Probably their attendance at worship was confined to a meeting in somebody’s house early in the morning on the first day of the week. With such meetings the opportunities for mutual help were limited to weekly contacts, so he urges them here to repeat the warnings of promises of God’s word on a daily basis when they meet one another (literally) ‘day by day’ (3:13), so that not one of them may be lured away by the deceptive attraction and subtle deceitfulness of sin. These believers had to be reminded not only of the superiority of Jesus and the importance of the word, but also the encouragement of the church. In frightened isolation they might fall, but in supportive companionship they would stand.”

(Disobedience had already led my ex to attend a different church then mine, so there was obviously a lack of mutual support when there was no mutual sharing of Christian community, plus the fact that her church was easily corrupted by her manipulations, and God’s judgment fell upon it a short time after the marriage ended [see my description of its destruction earlier in this thread].
No. 213     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 21, 2017 at 11:59 AM     
Warning #2 cont.


OF HEROES AND SUPERSTARS.

“Some time ago, a group of young children were asked whom they saw as heroes. Among the recipients of honor were Michael Jackson, Madonna, sports figures, and a US president. The majority were what previous generations called “celebrities,” who reserved the term hero for those known for special courage, nobility, achievement, and sacrifice. Our age of high tech has transformed the movie actor, the singer, and the football star into larger-than-life figures, blurring the lines between superstar status and true heroism. Political leaders garner admiration for ingenuity rather than moral fortitude (note the adoration our Political Forum SJW has for Obama).

The church has bought into this fuzzy thinking and the exaltation of superstardom. When a sports figure or rock star becomes a Christian, we see it as a special coup for the faith. We seem to think that their acceptance of Christianity gives special validity to the kingdom of God or that their fame will greatly advance the cause. The writer, the singer, or the athlete is interviewed for her special wisdom in life. The gilded image of the familiar face has obscured the truly heroes, who give their lives in the trenches of daily Christian sacrifice.

Walking alone, inner values producing outward action – these are the materials of true heroism. Heroes are often unsung, giving their lives quietly in a variety of walks in life. We as a culture have confused true heroism with fame.

We need genuine heroes who can be held up as examples of devotion to Christ. Commenting on this need, Elisabeth Elliot writes, ”How else shall we grasp the meaning of courage or strength or holiness? We need to see such truth made visible in the lives of human beings…” In Hebrews 3:1-6 the author does not disparage the community’s attribution of honor to Moses; he builds on it. The use of a heroic example in this passage (although Moses’ example is used only indirectly) calls the preacher of today to consider how he or she uses examples in preaching and challenges modern church person to reflect on whether they are distinguishing between superstars and true heroes.””

Remember the TOP GUN movie, where Tom Cruise plays the part of self-assured and rather arrogant young airman who seeks fame and glory in achieving the designation of ‘Top Gun’? Yet by the end of the movie, he learns a valuable lesson – that one never, EVER abandons his wingman.

Why is that?

Because your wingman is your partner; the person who has your back, and you have his. Your VERY LIFE depends on him, and vice versa. If you would be a true hero, you honor your code of essentially being ‘one’ with your wingman. You learn that fame is fleeting, but being an unsung hero of honoring your warrior code of protecting your wingman, and he protecting you, is the reality of heroism.

And so Tom Cruise's character made the transition from superstar to hero.

Is marriage commitment really all that different? Traditional marriage partners understood that marriage was more than just producing offspring, more than romance, even more than companionship. Marriage was the one place where you could be assured that someone had your back; that no matter what kind of crap the world might throw at you, you could always find at home someone who would love you unreservedly, and support you.

That was the code of traditional marriages. Today, marriages are quite different for the most part. The code (covenant) has been abandoned for the most part, and though a partner might be initially be viewed as a ‘hero,’ such views are soon abandoned as the realities of life reveal that “all have sinned,” and that any partner will end up with some warts in his or her life. So marital happiness ends up depending on a one-sided view that, in the end, what pleases ‘me’ is all that is important after the initial flush of marital bliss is in the dusty past.

I’m talking Christian marriages here, not only unbelievers. As mentioned, the culture has opted for ‘superstars’ as heroes. And since Christians unwisely allow themselves to be influenced by culture and end up mimic-ing it, the culture in effect becomes their God, and then when it comes to marital desertion, it is no big deal. After all, “he” or “she” hurt me, or didn’t measure up (to ‘my’ standards) in some way or another, and therefore ‘the Bible says’ I [can do whatever I say it says] can walk out of my marriage (covenant). The superstar image has fallen to reality, and therefore no longer needs to be considered viable, or worth spending ‘my’ time with.

So marriage ends up becoming a ‘Top Gun’ scenario, individualistic, seeking ‘me’, little sense of true commitment, and no sense of having a ‘wingman’ who is truly necessary, but rather valuable only for the moment…only lasting as long as ‘I’ am pleased with him or her. Not a Christian teaching, but Christians seem to go to sleep when it comes to obeying the Bible anyway.

Welcome to Western marriage.


I recall reading this story from a Christian magazine or some similar source. There was a missionary couple living in a dangerous land, where car bombings were common. Jesus Christ was not popular, and the couple was in great danger, but they continued in the Lord ('s work). (Continued - that's what were talking about in this thread, are we not?).

So the wife would get up each morning early, and unknown to her husband, would go out to the car to start it up. Her purpose was based on her own sacrifical love of the Lord and her husband. Should the car have been preset with a bomb, she would have saved her husband's life by sacrificing her own.

I remember reading this with amazement. Men, whether Christian or not, have it written in their DNA to protect women. Even so, I wonder how many men would do something like this for their wives. Women, on the other hand, have it written on their DNA to look towards their men for protection. Nothing wrong with this, but then when you consider the actions of this missionary wife, you see a real heroine! One who understands sacrifical love. One who understands the sacrifical love of the Savior by giving up his own life as a sacrifice for us.

I'm not saying every Christian wife should mimic the exact actions of this missionary woman, but what I am saying is that when one gets married, one should be living a sacrificial life; to Jesus Christ; and to their spouse. No gender bias here - both partners should be doing this, or they aren't truly partners.


Do you remember my earlier statement (post #208)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Even when my marriage was going downhill, one thing I depended on was my spouse's commitment to the Lord, I knew she would never abandon the marital relationship, as I knew she would never desert the Lord. Yet now I read statements like this quote and I have to wonder...

'This word [holding firmly] was used to refer to what was solid, durable, valid, confirmed, or guaranteed.. In a legal or business sense it connoted the stability of a contractual relationship. It was something on which one could depend, and it speaks here of the dependability or firmness of the Christian’s commitment, a commitment that had been expressed with assurance at the inception of each believer’s relationship with the Lord.'"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I recall this article about the missionary woman, and when I read Biblical teachings of things like "holding firmly," and then when I look back on my own experience of one I should have been able to depend on, as I was dependable myself, well...you now can see the reason for this thread.

No. 214     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 21, 2017 at 7:22 PM     
More on Heroes and Superstars -

This past week I've been getting a HUGE dose of on-screen ice skating. I love the Cutting Edge couple-skating movies and have seen all of them several times.

But this week its been ICE CASTLES, both the 1978 original and the 2010 remake.

In these wonderful movies, Lexie, a young aspiring skater is given her big chance to skate in competition with a recognized coach, and she begins to rise in popularity. The audiences love her, and her rise in fame is not only inspirational, but instrumental in making her a SUPERSTAR.

Then tragedy strikes, a skating accident, and she goes blind. Her life instantly becomes yesterday's news, and she mopes at home, feeling sorry for herself. The SUPERSTAR has fallen.

Her family refuses to let her stay in that condition, and they take her out on their frozen pond, where Lexis first began ice skating on, and starts her back on the path of doing something she loves, even though blind.

The (fictional) story progresses to the point where she decides to compete in competitive skating again. Her boyfriend especially works with her, and at the competition location, they rent the rink in the middle of the night so she will not be observed (the public only knows that she was injured. They don't know about the blindness).

Lexie learns how to count off numbers on the ice in order to skate competitively.

Comes the day of the competition, and Lexie performs flawlessly. The audience has their SUPERSTAR back and the applause is exceptional for the return of their SUPERSTAR and her performance.

Flowers were thrown out on the ice, a traditional way of recognizing a great performance, but something Lexie and her family did not figure in when planning her skating performance. Lexie, skating to take her 'bows,' skates into the flowers with predictable results - she falls, and the audience's applause immediately hushes. You could hear a pin drop.

They were stunned; their SUPERSTAR turned out to be someone they hadn't counted on.

And then the thunderous applause returns as the audience transitions from applauding a SUPERSTAR to a standing ovation to a HEROINE!

Many athletes are SUPERSTARS. Yes, their stories can be inspirational at times, but the point is the public loves their SUPERSTARS. This was something quite different, and the public realized that being a HERO trumped being a superstar.

Lexie was tremendously talented, and the crowds adored her. But when she dropped out of the public's eye after she was injured, the fickle public looked elsewhere for their 'heroes.'

Lexie herself, out of the public's eye, learned how to cope with her blindness, and to come back. She was indeed a heroine.

There was another unsung hero also in this story - her boyfriend, who refused to let her mope, helped bring her back, and stood with her all the way. The public didn't know him; didn't applaud him; and he didn't care. He wasn't about being a SUPERSTAR - he was about being someone Lexie could depend on...a HERO.

Core commitment.

Take a look...

(I had to search a bit to find this video. There were several which emphasized different things from the movie, but this one caught pretty much everything I was looking for - the wonderful Melissa Manchester hit song, the crowd's applause, Lexie's full performance while being blind, the boyfriend's standing by her at the end, etc. Notice the moment the crowd realizes that she is blind.)



You can watch these movies, both the original and the remake, here -
http://sockshare.net/search-movies/ice+castles.html





No. 215     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 24, 2017 at 11:01 AM     
Warning #3:
The Danger of Degeneration (Deformity}



1. THE SPIRITUAL PROBLEM (5:11-14)

11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil (Hebrews 5:11-14).

a. Their Present State: Deformity Due to Immaturity (5:11-13)

b. The Ideal State: Normality Due to Maturity (5:14)

5:11 - The problem in his hearers is that they have “become” dull of hearing. They didn’t used to be that way.

5:12 - They had been believers for a long period of time, and when for the time that they had been saved, should have been teaching at the Jerusalem Bible Institute, they still needed the teaching of the beginner course.

5:13 - This explains why they were still in babyhood. They had failed to use the knowledge they had in practical Christian living. The great principle of the Christian life is ‘use or lose.’ These people knew that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifices and that the temple sacrifices are all fulfilled in His once-for-all sacrifice; yet they cannot understand why it would be wrong for then to go back to the Temple and to the sacrifices. Their problem is not a matter of knowledge, but it is a matter of the use or exercise of that knowledge in life situations to discern right and wrong.

5:14 - The mature ones are able to do more than know facts. They can relate doctrine to experience. Thus maturity in the Christian life is not knowledge as such, but the ability to use that knowledge to solve situations and problems in relation to daily living.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though this warning has some specific application as to the OP, give a thought to how it might apply to today's present Church - immature, sluggish, dull of hearing, should be teachers rather than 'milk drinkers.'

I think the idea of 'use it or lose it' has great merit - if you don't exercise your faith, you will actually degenerate, rather than just settle on a plateau you have previously reached. Certainly in the case of my ex's horrible decision to desert brought a whole different set of consequences then if she had merely decided to 'wait things out' (continue or even begin to seek out the Lord). That's from her point of view, of course, for she also showed little or no realization of what Godly priorities in the Christian faith meant in practice, or in understanding what the concept of 'covenant' meant (in practice).

In short, her testimony as a Christian had no practical application when it came to lifestyle - pretty much what all these warnings in Hebrews are all about.
No. 216     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 25, 2017 at 12:54 PM     
Warning #3:
The Danger of Degeneration (Deformity)
...cont.


Let's consult another source (II) on Heb. 5:11-14


"The author articulates the slowness of learning of his readers with the words nothroi…tais akoais. In the ancient world the first of these words (nothros) could mean ‘sluggish, dull, dimwit, negligent, lazy.’ It was used in extrabiblical literature, for example, of a slave with ears ‘stopped up’ by laziness, who was thus not obedient instantly to the call of his master. In the sphere of athletics, the word could designate a competitor who was out of shape, lazy and sluggish.In other words, nothros connotes culpable negligence or sluggishness in some aspect of life. Moreover, that the recipients of this letter are lazy ‘in hearing’ (akoais) points to their inattention to the public proclamation of biblical teachings. This passage, therefore, calls to mind the author’s previous exhortation in 2:1 to ‘pay more careful attention…to what we have heard.’

However, our preacher finds the hearers’ condition especially egregious in light of their long-term involvement in the church. By now they ‘ought to be teachers, ‘ but instead need someone else to teach them. The content of the needed instruction is described as ‘the elementary truths [stoicheia] of God’s word.’ The phrase in Greek may be translated woodenly as ‘the basic principles of the beginning of the words of God.’ Stoicheia, as used in the broader literature of the era, sometimes had strongly metaphysical overtones, referring to spiritual beings of the universe. Here, however, it refers clearly to the elementary teachings of the Christian faith. Thus, this word’s use in 5:12 is more in line with those places in ancient literature where it refers to the elements of the alphabet or the most basic aspects of education. In line with this interpretation the NEB translates this phrase ‘the ABC of God’s oracles.’

Two other parts of verse 12 suggest that the author has in mind basic teachings, perhaps offered at the beginning of one’s Christian commitment. He states that the hearers need these basic lessons ‘again’ (palin), a word that in context points to a time in the past in which they all did receive the instruction. The author seems to assume that they were all exposed at one time to such teaching. The woodenly translated phrase (see previous paragraph) contains the word ‘beginning’ (arche). The word adds emphasis to the rudimentary nature of these teachings.

The delineation of different levels in the educational process and the use of ‘milk’ and ‘solid food’ as metaphors for basic over against advanced teachings were common in the ancient world and apparently were brought over in the pedagogical language of the early church (e.g., 1 Cor. 3:1-2; 1 Peter 2:2). So when the author exclaims, ‘You need milk, not solid food ‘ (Heb. 5:12), he is describing in no uncertain terms a level of immaturity among this readers. Spiritually they are acting like babies still suckling at a mother’s breast, unconcerned with the rich, hearty foods of the adults’ table.

Consequently, the addressees of Hebrews are ‘not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness’ (5:13). What the author has in mind by ‘teaching about righteousness’ has been interpreted variously by scholars as ‘right speech,’ ‘moral teachings,’’general teachings of Christianity,’ or ‘the theological instructions on Christ as the believer’s righteousness.’ The ‘teaching about righteousness, ‘ however, may refer to advanced theological instruction that stresses the cost and responsibilities of discipleship. Lane points to uses of this phrase in the second century that place it in the context of Christian suffering persecution. Polycarp taught, for example, that to obey full the word of righteousness one must be willing to endure the severest mistreatment. Lane comments:

“If this is the proper linguistic context for interpreting v 13, it suggests that what was involved in the regression of the community was a failure in moral character rather than in keen theological insight. The expression…acknowledges a basic moral weakness aggravated by the fear of violent death (cf. 2:14-15). If the community had begun to avoid contact with outsiders because they were unprepared for martyrdom, a social setting is established for the rebuke of v 12, for the reference to the sharpening of one’s faculties in the arena of moral decision in v 14, and for the prospect of crucifying the Son of God again and exposing him to public shame in 6:6."

Because of the context and the author’s emphases here, the moral failure in the face of persecution must be understood as stemming from a lack of response to theological instruction (cf. 2:1-4). These milk drinkers are in a perilous situation because they have neither an understanding nor an inclination toward deeper matters of the faith by which one understands the importance and means of perseverance. The writer’s statement that they need again to be taught the basics shows how far they have regressed in the way of right Christian response to theological truth.

‘The mature’ (v. 14), on the other hand, are able to handle ‘solid food’ (i.e. the advanced teachings of the faith), such as the author’s exposition on Christ’s priesthood, which will follow in chapters 7-10. Their adeptness at digesting such instructions stems from a spiritual condition consisting of certain spiritual abilities. The translated incorrectly as ‘constant use’ (hexis) by the NIV has been widely misinterpreted to mean ‘practice’ or ‘exercise.’ The word, rather , connotes a ‘state’ of ‘condition.’ The mature are those who, because of a mature spiritual condition, possess trained faculties that enable discernment of good and evil. In other words, they know how to make the right choices when confronted with critical decisions. The author wishes to challenge his hearers with the image of maturing that they might wade with him into the deeper waters of the following chapters. His hope is that they will repent of their spiritual immaturity, grasp hold of the deeper matters of the faith, and, ultimately, endure in the face of persecution." (II)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Moral failure"

"Milk-drinkers"

A key quote from this commentary, "These milk drinkers are in a perilous situation because they have neither an understanding nor an inclination toward deeper matter of the faith by which one understands the importance and means of perseverance."

I hope you are finding this as interesting as I am. It really does read like a description of a large portion of the church of today...and, of course, individuals who also have failed morally, such as taking the easy way out of a marriage that no longer pleases them.

And then there is the very relevant quote from the last paragraph above, "The mature are those who, because of a mature spiritual condition, possess trained faculties that enable discernment of good and evil. In other words, they know how to make the right choices when confronted with critical decisions."

Wow! Imagine that...making the right choices...from a condition of maturity. Sticking with the Lord when times get rough. Sticking with your marriage covenant partner when times get rough.

Imagine that!
No. 217     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 29, 2017 at 12:09 PM     
Warning #3:
The Danger of Degeneration (Deformity)
...cont.

(Source III)

1.The problem of ignorance (5:11-14)

Warning Against Apostasy
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.


"The writer of Hebrews is convinced that his readers’ ignorance stems from laziness (5:11). How can he begin to explain what it means for Christ’s priesthood to be ‘after the order of Melchizedek’ when they have lost their appetite for Christian truth? Instead of giving their best mind to sound doctrine and its practical application, many of these early Christian readers have become dull of hearing. The word really means ‘sluggish’; it is used in the Septuagint of ‘slothful men’ who refuse to tackle hard work, and occurs again later in this letter describing ‘sluggish’ people who need a good shake-up (6:12). It here describes those who develop a ‘couldn’t care less’ attitude to the study of holy Scripture, and have failed to give themselves to a regular, methodical, and painstaking study of its teaching and its relevance in everyday life.

Secondly, he has observed that their ignorance has led to ineffectiveness (5:12). Turning their backs on strenuous study and diligent application to spiritual teaching, they remain like babies when they ought to be adults, pupils when they might be instructors, Christians in need of help when they could be offering it to others. Paul says something similar about the Corinthians. (1 Cor. 3:1-2). It is not merely that they do not benefit personally but, even more serious, other people are denied the help which they might have receive from them had they been strong and resourceful believers.

Thirdly, he knows that spiritual ignorance results in carelessness (5: 13-14). The people who have not begun to master the ABC of the Christian life (first principles, cf. 6:1) can hardly hope to enrich the lives of others. Their own faith is far too insecure to be able to communicate confidence and assurance to other people. They cry for babies’ milk when they ought to have passed on to a more varied and substantial diet. But what is most serious about their spiritual ignorance is that, being unfamiliar with God’s word, they do not know his mind on important doctrinal, ethical and spiritual issues. His truth is a word of righteousness and those who master its message learn how to distinguish good from evil. Ths does not come to anybody without effort. These spiritual faculties have to be trained (gegymnasmena) as in a gymnasium, an idea that returns later in the epistle (12:11), also in the context of discipline.

These Jewish Christians had certainly not intended to get into this indolent, useless state, but this is clearly what has happened to them. When he says that their spiritual hearing has become dull, he uses the perfect tense; it describes the abiding result of a past act. However well intentioned they have been at the beginning, this is what they have allowed themselves to become. It is a warning no believer can ignore. Many people casually drift into a low standard of Christian life simply because they minimize the importance of Christian instruction and disciplined Bible study. Quite possibly on most days they quietly ponder a few verses and say a quick prayer, but it does not occur to them that this is not nearly enough. Failing to acknowledge their need of it, they slowly lose their desire for it. Somehow or other, however busy he or she may be, every Christian needs to find a regular opportunity for serious study of the Bible." (III)

(The use of ‘III’ is my beginning to reference external sources, something I should have been doing all along. I mainly am using one online source, and the 2 previously mentioned Hebrew commentary sources. I will specifically identify all 3 sources when I come to the end of these Hebrews warnings, and if I get the chance, I will go back and edit previous posts to identify the sources as they are used)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"His truth is a word of righteousness and those who master its message learn how to distinguish good from evil" This reiterates a previous point. Does a person, a believer, really understand righteousness and and how to distinguish good from evil when they desert a marital covenant relationship? Obviously this is an opinion, but I'd say no, he or she does NOT.
No. 218     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 29, 2017 at 7:43 PM     
As an interesting aside, I saw my ex yesterday. Normally, I see her maybe once or twice a year, at family events.

Yesterday I was babysitting one of my granddaughters (the local one) and my daughter found out she might be an extra half hour late returning home (she is a teacher for Water for Ishmael and is going through some teacher preparations before the next session starts).

Her mother was coming over in the afternoon to spend some time with her and the granddaughter, so with the late event, the mother, my ex, ended up taking over the babysitting for the last half hour before my daughter returned. I knew it was going to happen ahead of time and as my daughter knows I hold my ex in very low regard, she asked me if it would be a problem, of which it wasn't and I told her so.

I think sometime or another I have mentioned that at the time of the 'troubles,' my ex mentioned to me that I must hate her. I told her then, and it remains true today, that no, I didn't hate her but I didn't like her very much either.

But that doesn't mean I cannot be socialable towards her, and in our infrequent contacts we both behave responsibly. So she arrived and we talked briefly about a few things, and I left. We never discuss our break-up, for unless and until she repents, there is nothing really of substance to say to one another. The essential facts are that one of us repented; and one of us never did, nor felt it necessary.

In Psalm 55, which my Sunday morning study group covered last Sunday, David is mournful because of "the oppression of the wicked."

More specifically, one close to his heart proved unfaithful -

12 For it is not an enemy who taunts me-- then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me-- then I could hide from him. 13 But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. 14 We used to take sweet counsel together; within God's house we walked in the throng.

Though David did not judge the heart of that one, he recognized that there probably would not be any repentance occurring -

15 Let death steal over them; let them go down to Sheol alive; for evil is in their dwelling place and in their heart.

...and....

19 God will give ear and humble them, he who is enthroned from of old, Selah because they do not change and do not fear God. 20 My companion stretched out his hand against his friends; he violated his covenant. 21 His speech was smooth as butter, yet war was in his heart; his words were softer than oil, yet they were drawn swords.

My ex has chosen to live unrepentantly. She's chosen to continue to live a self-centered life as far as I am able to see. And, she's chosen to live an apostate life. And since I have given her up to the Lord, I need not hate, nor react negatively in the brief contacts I have with her. Neither do I need to condemn her in those brief contacts. But I, as David, am quite aware that there will likely never be any real repentance on the part of this apostate in this lifetime.

She's no longer my problem, and I rest freely. God will take care if her, one way or another...sooner or later.

23 But you, O God, will cast them down into the pit of destruction; men of blood and treachery shall not live out half their days. But I will trust in you.



No. 219     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 31, 2017 at 10:27 AM     
Just a few more thoughts about Warning #3 before going on...

Yesterday I again saw my ex - same situation as a couple of days ago - babysitting my granddaughter and the ex coming over at the end.

As I go through these warnings in Hebrews, I've been referencing her actions, as they truly give me a basis of understanding and applying the Warnings of Hebrews.

With Warning #1 (drifting away) and Warning #2 (do not doubt), I found much relevance in my experience with one whom is obviously disobedient to God's Word.

Those first two warnings were where she was then, nearly 20 yrs. ago.

Where is she today?

That is a little tougher to discern, as she is no longer part of my life and I am not part of hers, but as I observed her yesterday, the thought of Warning #3 (do not degenerate, do not stay immature) does come to mind. She goes her own way. She has no concern for her previous covenant-breaking and oath-breaking. She's apparently complacent and content.

But she's not obedient to God's Word. It seems to be no big deal to her.

We're not done with looking at Warning #3, and the next couple of Warnings in Hebrews may shed some more light upon this, but my thoughts at the moment are that my ex's actions of 20 yrs. ago relate to Warnings 1 and 2, and her actions (or lack of) of today are centered in Warning #3.

Keep in mind my earlier statement that the warnings in Hebrews are progressive in nature, documenting the gradually widening distance of the one who once followed the Lord but has not persevered in growing in Him; rather, slipping farther and farther away in their walk.
No. 220     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Aug 31, 2017 at 8:23 PM     
Again ... I've been reading your thread Stormchaser ... without much response from me ... but I do want you to know ... again ... I've been reading.

It's so good to see how God has helped you " work through " all of this ... going through the " phases " ... and seeing how God gives us time to do so.

We may never know some things ... but we will know what we need to know.

Just amazing ! Thank you for sharing this thread with us ! :2thumbs:

May it be a blessing for those who have gone through similar situations.

No. 221     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Aug 31, 2017 at 9:06 PM     
RadioPreacherMan wrote:

Again ... I've been reading your thread Stormchaser ... without much response from me ... but I do want you to know ... again ... I've been reading.

It's so good to see how God has helped you " work through " all of this ... going through the " phases " ... and seeing how God gives us time to do so.

We may never know some things ... but we will know what we need to know.

Just amazing ! Thank you for sharing this thread with us ! :2thumbs:

May it be a blessing for those who have gone through similar situations.



Thank you, RPM, but I am also receiving impressions that there is a much wider application than the original OP. Just today I was listening to prophecies about how true believers will be delivered up to the headsman by other 'believers' who believe that they are doing God's work for Him. These misled ones would appear to fit into the warnings from Hebrews.

Separately,I also received an impression that Bush may very well fit into these warnings from Hebrews also. The man knows the Bible, gave the impression while President that he knew God, yet in the years since several ungodly actions of his have become clear, i.e. actions an apostate might commit.

Heady stuff.

So I don't really know where this thread is going. Obviously it is about my journey, though it is beginning to appear that the journey has a MUCH wider application than my original question posited - a journey that we all might well be aware of and warned about.

I believe God is speaking, but many are not listening.
No. 222     Reply: Re: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Sep 1, 2017 at 6:16 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:

I believe God is speaking, but many are not listening.



:exactly:

No. 223     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Sep 3, 2017 at 11:24 AM     
I just watched a Jonathan Cahn interview from last year which has relevance to this thread.

FIRST is his description of the ancient Hebrew marriage customs. The prospective groom would come to the prospective bride’s home with a gift of great value in hand. The bride would accept the gift, and a covenant would be made between the two.

The groom would then depart, and begin spending his time getting a home prepared for his bride.

The bride would begin spending her time preparing herself, to be ready, to be beautiful, for the groom.

Sometime later, maybe a year, the marriage would take place, and the following video describes that process, but for our purposes (in our Hebrews study), Cahn likens the groom to be God, and the precious gift he brings for the bride is the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.

We are the bride, of course, and we accept his precious gift, and we therefore labor to make ourselves ready for the future marriage; to make ourselves beautiful for it.

That is what Hebrews is really about. The message is prepare – stop messing around, stop living for yourself – and get ready. Getting ready does not mean holding your breath. It means actively preparing yourself...knowing God better by diligent study...getting sin out of your life...living for Him.

A great interview with Cahn. The part about the ancient Jewish marriages begins at 8:00.


No. 224     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Sep 5, 2017 at 12:36 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

I just watched a Jonathan Cahn interview from last year which has relevance to this thread.



Second is his mentioning of the word apostasia, which not only means "a falling away from the faith" (which is what we are discussing in this thread), but also "to fall away from the state of being." What does this mean?

Falling away from the state of being:

  • Man falls away from the state of manhood

  • Woman falls away from the state of womanhood

  • Family falls away from the state of family

  • Marriage falls away from the state of marriage

These are end-times mysteries, but we should take notice.

And though it seem to go beyond the intent of this thread, you might still find relevance with enough contemplation.

Same video. Starts at 14:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPxKFFxxUak&t=629s

No. 225     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 3, 2017 at 9:52 AM     
continuing on...

In our study of Warning #3 in Heb. 5 & 6, we covered the problem if ignorance (Heb. 5:11-14) in posts #215-217.

My one source (III) identifies 3 pastoral problems from these chapters. Are they ‘pastoral problems’? I’d say, certainly yes, if you consider apostasy an actual problem. Elsewhere there is a debate going on about the apostasy of the Book of Hebrews being “hypothetical” or not, but here we are dealing with the actual problems of the church (including but not limited to my ex’s moral problems), so we will go at it from the understanding that apostasy can and does happen with those who name the Name of Jesus Christ, and leave the debate about what constitutes a true believer for other discussions.


So, III identifies 3 pastoral problems, the first identified as

The problem of ignorance (5:11-14)
(covered in posts #215, #216, and #217.



The 2nd pastoral problem (of Warning #3) is:

2. The problem of immaturity (Heb. 6:1-3)

" ‘Solid food is for the mature’ (5:14). Ignorance leads to immaturity. First, we must establish ourselves in the elementary doctrine of Christ and then acquire an appetite for the more solid food (5:12) of other aspects of Christian teaching. We must go on to maturity. The solid foundation of Christian is of immense importance but, once that is well and truly laid, there is no need to go on repeating that process, laying again a further foundation. Six basic basic aspects of Christian teaching are enumerated here. They may well have been regarded in this particular church as the essential features of catechetical instruction for young converts.

a. Repentance form dead works (the discussion of the tithe elsewhere in this forum comes to mind)

b. Faith in God

c. Baptism or washings

d. Laying on of hands

e. Resurrection of the dead

f. Eternal judgment"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is more about these individual points, but the main point here is to go forward, learning elementary doctrines and not wasting time in repeatedly laying on of the solid foundation we should have already learned.

In regards to the OP and specifically my ex, there never was any apparent growth. She was stalled in her faith, and, as mentioned in this post, continually laying on the foundation of her faith, having never really learned anything past the most basic of doctrines. My family, my children, paid a HUGE price for that immaturity.
No. 226     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 3, 2017 at 10:18 AM     
Stormchaser wrote:



My one source (III) identifies 3 pastoral problems from these chapters. Are they ‘pastoral problems’? I’d say, certainly yes, if you consider apostasy an actual problem. Elsewhere there is a debate going on about the apostasy of the Book of Hebrews being “hypothetical” or not, but here we are dealing with the actual problems of the church (including but not limited to my ex’s moral problems), so we will go at it from the understanding that apostasy can and does happen with those who name the Name of Jesus Christ, and leave the debate about what constitutes a true believer for other discussions.




In case there is any confusion about this statement, it is true enough that the OP does incorporate a discussion about what might a "true believer" be, but this thread should be understood as being an evolving understanding as to that point, rather than a once & done previously defined statements of belief.

The idea here is that we (or at least myself) are on a journey of discovery, rather than a previously standard set by others. That, I think, gives this thread a sense of a fresh walk with God, hearing what He might have to say on the subject.
No. 227     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 4, 2017 at 11:25 AM     
Diverting for a moment into something the Lord just brought to my attention –

Methodism is a denomination that came out of nowhere and made quite an appearance on the American and British evangelicalism scene, primarily in the 1700 &1800’s.

Thousands of lives were changed, but the interesting thing about Methodism is that it was not just a brief kindling of the Spirit, fires burning brightly but then just as fast dying out.

No, Methodism was a creation of John Wesley, and he incorporated a ‘method’ of keeping up with the spiritual health of its members, and that ‘method’ kept Methodist on fire for over a century.

That ‘method’ was called the class meeting, Wesley’s version of the home churches found in the New Testament. There is much we could discuss about these ‘class meetings,’ but for the purpose of our discussion of the Book of Hebrews, you might find the following instructive…

“Wesley did not permit discipline to grow lax. In his periodic visits to the various places, he ‘examined,’ ‘regulated,’ or ‘purged’ the classes and societies as need required. He (or later his assistants) would carefully explain the rules and exclude any who were not seeking to follow them. Excluded members would then receive no quarterly membership tickets. Many of these would later be readmitted if they mended their ways.”

“Some examples show the extent of the discipline and the nature of the offenses. In 1748, Wesley reduced the Bristol society from 900 to 730, while on other occasions he found no expulsions were necessary. In port cities he often had to exclude some members for smuggling and found with time that this discipline bore fruit in reduced smuggling in the area. From one city he expelled sixty-four persons, two for cursing, two for habitual Sabbath breaking, seventeen for drunkenness, two for selling liquor, three for quarreling, one for wife beating, three for habitual lying, four for evil speaking, one for idleness, and twenty-nine for ‘lightness and carelessness.’ Bebb notes, ‘Few were expelled for strictly religious faults, and none for doctrinal differences, while significantly enough, the largest number were excluded for not taking seriously enough their religion, and to take it seriously always involved, in Wesley’s view, right conduct to one’s neighbour.’ In exercising discipline ‘the question is not,’ said Wesley, ‘concerning the heart, but the life. And the general tenor of this…cannot be hid without a miracle.’ Therefore discipline was both possible and necessary.”
(THE RADICAL WESLEY, John Howard Snyder, IVP)

There is quite a lot more that can be said about early Methodism, but there are a few points that have bearing on our discussion of both Hebrews and the OP.

The Warnings of Hebrews address several of the things that Wesley took action on, such as drifting apart and unbelief.

The class meetings were about both heart and life. The meeting together of the saints purified and blessed the hearts, but when sin was too strong in an individual, it would be quite evident in the actions of his life. And when that happened, Wesley would initiate discipline on the life.

The Warnings of Hebrews call us back to God’s heart. They stress an inner discipline by having a grip on Christ, and allowing His grip on us. When our discipline grows lax, the outer discipline (of the Church) should be exercised (though rarely is nowadays).

The Methodists of Wesley’s time were a people in process. They heard the call of the Lord and joined the class meetings. They partook of all the ‘one-anothers’ that the New Covenant offered them through the class meetings in the homes. They were sinners. They were smugglers, cursors, wife beaters, liars, idlers, and interesting enough, “the largest number were excluded for not taking seriously enough their religion.”

And so for the Methodists, Christianity was a journey, not a once & done thing, and I’m not speaking of doctrine here, but rather of actual life. Hebrews called them to exercise personal and self-discipline, and when that failed, Wesley exercised (Church) discipline, and lives were changed.

For Wesley, “lightness and carelessness” (Heb. 2 – drifting away) were not acceptable, and discipline was exercised. One did not live out their spiritual life in the American model of ‘privacy’ and ‘individualism.’ Instead, believers met together as a family, NOT in a building with a name and with an organized, formal scrip and one-man show running things. Believers shared their struggles, faults, and successes. And when they needed help, they got it.
No. 228     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 5, 2017 at 9:25 AM     
It is long past the time that I identify my sources used in this thread.

I mentioned that in June I had attended a Christian camp up in Michigan's UP, a camp that I have had a lifelong relationship with, owned by a college Christian organization (IVCF) that I also have had a lifelong relationship with.

At the particular focus camp I attended this year, the emphasis of the speaker was on Hebrews, and the special book table that was there had a couple of commentaries on Hebrews that I was interested in, so I purchased them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first is:

THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie, Zondervan.

(I don't particularly like the NIV, but as I viewed the pages of this book, I realized the important thing was the author's scholarship on Hebrews.)

For reference purposes in this thread, this commentary will be designated as 'II'.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The second commentary I purchased is:

THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, "The Bible Speaks Today" (BST) series, IVP

(I have found the BST series of commentaries excellent in the past and was well-pleased to find this one available at half-price)

For reference purposes in this thread, this commentary will be designated as 'III'.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Finally, my third source is online, therefore immediately accessible to everyone, is:

The Five Warnings of Hebrews, John W. Lawrence, BIBLE.ORG (https://bible.org/article/five-warnings-hebrews)

For reference purposes in this thread, this commentary will be designated as 'I'.
No. 229     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 8, 2017 at 6:20 PM     
There is a debate going on in this forum about the meaning of Heb. 6. Since it has relevance, I'm going to post my position from it here, and if you've been following closely, you already know it, but here it is anyway...

Hebrews 6 thread - post #20

Stormchaser wrote:

(6) This then brings us to a sixth position, the one proposed in this commentary, which might be labeled the phenomenological unbeliever view. The stance has been a favorite of those with a Calvinistic orientation and proposes that the “fallen” in Hebrews may have seemed to be genuine Christians as they participated in the community of believers, but in fact, by their rejection of Christ, have shown themselves to lack genuine faith. The danger heralded in the warnings, therefore, is real, constituting eternal judgment, and those being addressed could commit the sin.

SOURCE – THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie (Zondervan)
No. 230     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM     
- continuing on with Warning #3

1. The problem of ignorance (5:11-14)
2. The problem of immaturity (Heb. 6:1-3)

3. The problem of apostasy (6:4-8)

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

There are clear hints at this point and elsewhere in the letter that doctrinal ignorance and spiritual immaturity have led to serious disasters in this church. Some believers, who made an apparently excellent beginning in their Christian lives, are now not merely chronic invalids or spiritual casualties, but have become fierce opponents of the Christian gospel. Understandably, some members of this church may have become worried about the destiny of apostates, and the writer finds it necessary in the course of his pastoral involvement to say something about those who have not only drifted away (2:1), or fallen away (3:12), but have with hardened hearts (3:12-13) become active rebels against the way and work of Christ. In describing these sad apostates the letter mentions three characteristic features: they despise God’s gifts, they reject God’s Son, and they forfeit God’s blessing.

[Storm comment: Each of the points just mentioned are covered more fully in the commentary, but for the purposes of this thread, I will just cover the last point’s further commentary.


They forfeit God’s blessing (6:7-8)

The author brings this pastoral warning to a close by using a vivid parable drawn from agricultural life and probably dependent on familiar Old Testament Scripture. Deuteronomy 29:18-28 describes the fate of anyone who ‘turns away…from the Lord our God’. Such a person walks in the stubbornness of his heart and produces ‘a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit’. An apostate of this kind cannot be pardoned, his sin being likened to ‘a burnt-out waste, unsown, and growing nothing, where no grass can sprout’. Or it could be an oblique reference to the highly relevant prophetic word in Isaiah 5: 1-7, the story of a vineyard which, because it failed to produce the expected fruit, was ‘trampled down’ and made a waste where ’briars and thorns shall grow up’. The parable which concludes this section confronts the reader with a stark choice. The suggestion is that both types of land, good and bad, genuine and apostate, have received the rain that often falls upon it. The blessings of God’s rich goodness have come to both, but one produces useful vegetation and receives a blessing from God, whilst the other bears only useless and even harmful thorns and thistles. It receives God’s present curse and anticipates his future destruction (12:29). [III]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[I] The Five Warnings of Hebrews, John W. Lawrence, BIBLE.ORG

[II] THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie, Zondervan.

[III] THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, "The Bible Speaks Today" (BST) series, IVP
No. 232     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 16, 2017 at 11:57 AM     
Warning #4:
The Danger of Despising

(Hebrews 10:26-31)

Hebrews 10

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:26-31).

"Each warning given in Hebrews is progressively worse. As we’ve seen there is the danger of drifting away from the truth (2:1-4); the danger of not entering into His rest (ch. 3-4); and the danger of not going on to maturity (ch. 5-6).

All of these dangers are only for the child of God, not for the child of the world. The danger of the unsaved is not to be saved and thus go to the lake of fire. The writer of Hebrews is not writing to his people, Israel, who are unbelievers. Matthew has done that. He is writing to those who are believers, who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for their sins. They made a good confession and, even in the midst of suffering, were faithful to the Lord. But persecution has continued and intensified. They had suffered the loss of all their material wealth.
What was their problem? They needed to patiently endure. They needed to hold fast and not give up thinking that it is not worthwhile. One of the key words of the book in Hebrews, therefore, is “patience” or “patient endurance.”

So the author, after reprimanding his hearers for not being teachers of the Word even though they had been saved long enough to be teaching, and still needing to be taught the milk, urges them along with himself to “go on to maturity.” The reason “for” doing this is because it is impossible for “anyone” who is saved if they should defect from the faith to renew them again to an initial repentance. No one can be saved but once. No one can have his past forgiven but once. After coming to Christ, everything we do will come before the judgment seat of Christ and it will be rewarded if it is good, or burnt if it is good-for-nothing.

This is why there is the need to go on and a warning against going back. You can never regain wasted years. Thus the illustration of Hebrews 6:7-8 fits perfectly. All we produce is either for blessing or burning. It is not the believer that will be burned, but what he has produced. Often we take the blessings of the rain and sunshine and yet only produce thorns and briers." [I]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously this source believes that the Warnings of Hebrews are strictly for believers, in the sense that all who name the Name are true believers. You can agree or disagree, but I think he makes a great point of how one can waste their lives producing only chaff that will be burned, and that is my own primary interest in this warning for the purposes of this thread.

Getting back to personal application and my ex-wife's desertion, back in Post #219, I said this:

"Where is she today?

That is a little tougher to discern, as she is no longer part of my life and I am not part of hers, but as I observed her yesterday, the thought of Warning #3 (do not degenerate, do not stay immature) does come to mind. She goes her own way. She has no concern for her previous covenant-breaking and oath-breaking. She's apparently complacent and content.

But she's not obedient to God's Word. It seems to be no big deal to her."

There I was addressing her present condition and relating it to Warning #3. Going on with Warning #4, I would have to say, as in #3, I really do not know where she is today, but what I do know is that she has never repented of her earlier sins. As such, and from opinion only, though based on that fact, I would opine that she, as Warning #4 suggests, is living a life of uselessness as far as God is concerned, producing only that which will be finally burned in the fire, whether or not she truly is a believer.











------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I] The Five Warnings of Hebrews, John W. Lawrence, BIBLE.ORG

[II] THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie, Zondervan.

[III] THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, "The Bible Speaks Today" (BST) series, IVP

No. 233     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 21, 2017 at 11:19 AM     
Warning #4 continued...

So now let’s go to another one of the previously mentioned resources concerning Heb. 10:26-31
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Harsh Word of Warning

As F. F. Bruce notes, commenting especially on the phrase “deliberately keep on sinning,” “this passage was destined to have repercussions in Christian history beyond what our author could have foreseen,” insofar as interpreters have struggled with the issue of “post-baptismal sin.” Whatever one’s interpretation of this deliberate sin (10:24), the additional proclamations concerning “raging fire,” consumption of the enemies of God, and a punishment more severe than death have put fear into many hearts – and rightly so! A living God is not one with whom we can trifle. Yet, what problem is being addressed?

The word placed first in the Greek text, a position marking it as important to the author, is the word translated as “deliberately” (hekousios). This adverb communicates the idea of willing participation in an action, something done with a clear mind and firm step, and is important to our interpretation of the passage. What the author has in mind is deliberate, sinful lifestyle of high-handed rebellion against the gospel. If a person keeps on sinning in this way after receiving a knowledge of the gospel’s truth, no sacrifice for this kind of sin remains.

The distinction between those who sin in ignorance, wandering of the path (5:2), and those who radically rebel against the Word of God may be seen in Num. 15:27-31, where the latter course is said to be blasphemy. So in Heb. 10:26 those whom the author has in mind demonstrate a continuity between the time before hearing the gospel and after, continuing a lifestyle of rejecting God’s Word. For those persons there exists no sacrifice for their sins. In 10:1-18 the author has already made clear that the sacrifice offered by Christ has rendered all others obsolete. Where, then, can one go other than to Christ for an efficacious sacrifice? Once he and his provision have been rejected, there is nowhere else to turn.

What does remain is anything but pleasant. The writer mentions “a fearful expectation of judgment” and “of raging fire,” images that continue to play off old covenant imagery and also communicate eschatological realities. The concept of fear in the biblical literature often describes a human response to the awesomeness and power of God. Here in Hebrews 10 the expectation of certain judgment is said to be “fearful” Much more than a mere feeling, this expectation has to do with an awareness of an impending event – God’s reckoning with the sinners’ defiant rebellion against his grace.

The author describes the nature of that judgment by alluding to Isaiah 26:11. The context of that Old Testament passage is suggestive since it depicts a contrast between the righteous who walk in the ways of God and long for his presence, and the wicked, who go on doing evil in spite of God’s grace toward them. The former look forward to the judgments of God earth; the latter belong to the ranks of God’s enemies, for whom the fire is reserved. [II]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as personal application (concerning my ex), not much to add to my previous post, other than I find this quote greatly interesting -

"...it depicts a contrast between the righteous who walk in the ways of God and long for his presence, and the wicked, who go on doing evil in spite of God’s grace toward them."

Sorry, but I can't say I found any "longing for his presence" in either the attitude or actions of my ex, a longing...I might add...that I myself had in my desire to not only have the marriage continue, but to work on it to provide something worthy of Him. She only exhibited judgment...and arrogance, with no sense of knowing the 'fear' of God in her actions.

I don't really understand such an attitude from a genuine, consecrated believer - a position I believe I have already opined on - she was not and is not such.

In the wider application of the OP, where is the heart of the 'believer' who unjustly deserts a convenant marriage? Can it be said that such a person longs for God's presence when at the same time they trash their (marital) three-way covenant with Him?

I think not.







------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[I] The Five Warnings of Hebrews, John W. Lawrence, BIBLE.ORG

[II] THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie, Zondervan.

[III] THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, "The Bible Speaks Today" (BST) series, IVP
No. 234     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 23, 2017 at 12:04 PM     
Yesterday I was at the self-checkout of a large grocery store chain. A station opened up and I went to it, setting my goods down and began to 'fluff' open the plastic bags in preparation to put items in them.

One of the bags, however, already had a greeting card in it.

In the station next to me, an 'off-duty' store employee was beginning to ring up his own purchases. I told him, "Hey, someone left a greeting card they just purchased!"

While he was still processing that, I took off with the greeting card bag towards the door. I had a vague impression that a lady had used the checkout before me, but I wasn't sure.

As I ran out the door, there was only one lady ahead of me, so I called out to her and as it turned out, the card was hers.

I returned to the checkout, told the store employee that I had caught her, and he said that was awesome, and seemed to genuinely mean it.

This incident got me thinking. Yes, it was a good thing to do. Yes, it was probably "awesome," though I didn't use that word for myself. And yes, as I thought further, God was probably pleased that I had done that good deed.

And as I thought further, that good deed had nothing to do with getting me into heaven. Even so, I had done it without thinking, immediately taking action, and even running to catch the lady.

I have a medical condition that precludes running or even hiking. It is called 'neuropathy.' Because of it, I no longer run, or hike, or even use the treadmill at the gym. I can walk, but after a certain amount of time doing that my feet begin to experience pain.

Yet I didn't even think of that when I ran to catch this lady. It has been a few years since I have attempted to run. But I did so, with no real problems, though realize it was a very short run.

My point is, I just did this deed without any sort of thinking about it. As I thought about it, I also thought about what others might do in this situation.

Some would have taken the card for themselves.

Some would have called it to the attention to the store employee working the self-checkouts (who was not immediately in sight)

Some would have merely laid the card above on the shelf, out of their way.

Some of these decisions would have been ok. One would have been theft. But how many would put out that little 'extra' to chase that woman down?

Actually, I think some would have done that, but not very many.

Where I'm heading with this is not that Stormchaser is someone who should be officially recognized, or get a medal, or whatever.

But as I continued with my thoughts on this, I realized that one who goes beyond the ordinary and does good deeds, and does them almost automatically, is essentially a quality individual, one who stands out, and, I thought, that is what the Lord expects of us as partakers of His Kingdom. It is what Kingdom people do.

And then I kind of thought back to this thread. Should Kingdom people, genuine believers, have this kind of testimony? My answer to myself was yes, they should. Yet supposedly such a 'quality' person can abandon a marriage without justification, if we go with the usual Christian thought on this question. We might even go further and say it is a mistake to do so, but still legitimate for a believer to act thusly and still be considered 'Christian.'

Really?

I think if you have been following this thread, you know that I personally have concluded that such an understanding is unbiblical when it comes to a genuine, consecrated believer. Genuine believers do not give up that easily. They work at their problems. They persevere. Yet, unfortunately, in our toxic culture with laws crafted to please feminists, women in our culture find it easy to take advantage of laws that benefit them.

My focus here is not really to debate feminism, but it should be recognized that most divorces are initiated by women. One can debate why that is, but it is not rocket science to understand that if any group is entitled by specific laws, than it is only natural that group will take advantage of those laws.

We know that when laws persecute Christians, it is a no-brainer that it makes it harder to be a Christian, right?

But what about when laws benefit a certain sub-group, in this case a very large sub-group, women, who also happen to have a Christian subset, then what will be the result?

Again, the answer is not rocket science. It is only natural that someone with a serious issue with someone else, even a spouse, and that issue can be addressed in a legal matter that will benefit that person, he or she will, in the natural (and if not appeased), end up taking advantage of it.

Do we, as believers, stop and think whether or not such actions are Godly, or allowed by God's Word? Sadly, most do not. It's just too easy to go with the 'flow'; to go with the culture; to go with the law, and the (feminist) culture and law encourages our women to "You go, gal!" rather then to go with the Word (in this case, I Cor. 6).

Again, the focus here is not really so much about feminism, though that issue is a worthy one to discuss. Rather, the issue, whether we, men or women, black or white, rich or poor...whether or not we realize that our calling as genuine believers is to follow God...or take the easy route and follow man (or maybe 'woman' in this case).

Do we fight for what is right...or do we fight for what is 'right' for us?



One more thought before ending this post. I wondered if one could call my ex-wife a 'quality person?' Certainly her side of the family would think so. Probably so would our children. Her friends would also think that. And though I myself would not have agreed, before the creation of this thread, I still tended to think of her merely as someone who made a big mistake.

However, as the evidence of her wrong actions mounted as a whole for the first time in my own realization, I realized that in actuality she had a history of selfish, evil decisions; decisions that were not made with what God wanted, but rather with what SHE wanted. She actually does good things at times, I'm sure. She may do others a good turn. She might even chase down the person before her at a checkout stand in a grocery mart who left a purchase at the stand.

Does that make her a quality person? Perhaps in some ways, but what about in the only way that really counts - that of a life pleasing to God? Can a person who makes all the bad decisions in the ways that really count, when the stresses of life occur, when 'the rubber meets the road', be thought of as a genuine Christ-follower?

It's worth thinking about.

No. 235     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  insular926   Gender: M   Age: 57   on  Oct 23, 2017 at 12:40 PM     
storm,

You really poured your heart and soul out in this thread.
No. 236     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  texascowgirl283   Gender: F   Age: 51   on  Oct 23, 2017 at 1:08 PM     
But how many would put out that little 'extra' to chase that woman down?

Me.. in a heartbeat. I have twice done something nice for someone. I recently found a drivers license and found the woman in the parking lot and it gave to her. I also had a lady at the store that didnt have the moeny to pay for her batteries so I paid for them and ran them out to her in the parking lot and gave her the receipt so she could see I payed for them. She was on foot so I guess she lived in the near by houses. I would chase anyone down to give them what is theirs.
No. 237     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Survivor698   Gender: M   Age: 103   on  Oct 23, 2017 at 4:28 PM     
Stormchaser wrote:

Yesterday I was at the self-checkout of a large grocery store chain. A station opened up and I went to it, setting my goods down and began to 'fluff' open the plastic bags in preparation to put items in them.

One of the bags, however, already had a greeting card in it.

In the station next to me, an 'off-duty' store employee was beginning to ring up his own purchases. I told him, "Hey, someone left a greeting card they just purchased!"

While he was still processing that, I took off with the greeting card bag towards the door. I had a vague impression that a lady had used the checkout before me, but I wasn't sure.

As I ran out the door, there was only one lady ahead of me, so I called out to her and as it turned out, the card was hers.

I returned to the checkout, told the store employee that I had caught her, and he said that was awesome, and seemed to genuinely mean it.

This incident got me thinking. Yes, it was a good thing to do. Yes, it was probably "awesome," though I didn't use that word for myself. And yes, as I thought further, God was probably pleased that I had done that good deed.

And as I thought further, that good deed had nothing to do with getting me into heaven. Even so, I had done it without thinking, immediately taking action, and even running to catch the lady.

I have a medical condition that precludes running or even hiking. It is called 'neuropathy.' Because of it, I no longer run, or hike, or even use the treadmill at the gym. I can walk, but after a certain amount of time doing that my feet begin to experience pain.

Yet I didn't even think of that when I ran to catch this lady. It has been a few years since I have attempted to run. But I did so, with no real problems, though realize it was a very short run.

My point is, I just did this deed without any sort of thinking about it. As I thought about it, I also thought about what others might do in this situation.

Some would have taken the card for themselves.

Some would have called it to the attention to the store employee working the self-checkouts (who was not immediately in sight)

Some would have merely laid the card above on the shelf, out of their way.

Some of these decisions would have been ok. One would have been theft. But how many would put out that little 'extra' to chase that woman down?

Actually, I think some would have done that, but not very many.

Where I'm heading with this is not that Stormchaser is someone who should be officially recognized, or get a medal, or whatever.

But as I continued with my thoughts on this, I realized that one who goes beyond the ordinary and does good deeds, and does them almost automatically, is essentially a quality individual, one who stands out, and, I thought, that is what the Lord expects of us as partakers of His Kingdom. It is what Kingdom people do.

And then I kind of thought back to this thread. Should Kingdom people, genuine believers, have this kind of testimony? My answer to myself was yes, they should. Yet supposedly such a 'quality' person can abandon a marriage without justification, if we go with the usual Christian thought on this question. We might even go further and say it is a mistake to do so, but still legitimate for a believer to act thusly and still be considered 'Christian.'

Really?

I think if you have been following this thread, you know that I personally have concluded that such an understanding is unbiblical when it comes to a genuine, consecrated believer. Genuine believers do not give up that easily. They work at their problems. They persevere. Yet, unfortunately, in our toxic culture with laws crafted to please feminists, women in our culture find it easy to take advantage of laws that benefit them.

My focus here is not really to debate feminism, but it should be recognized that most divorces are initiated by women. One can debate why that is, but it is not rocket science to understand that if any group is entitled by specific laws, than it is only natural that group will take advantage of those laws.

We know that when laws persecute Christians, it is a no-brainer that it makes it harder to be a Christian, right?

But what about when laws benefit a certain sub-group, in this case a very large sub-group, women, who also happen to have a Christian subset, then what will be the result?

Again, the answer is not rocket science. It is only natural that someone with a serious issue with someone else, even a spouse, and that issue can be addressed in a legal matter that will benefit that person, he or she will, in the natural (and if not appeased), end up taking advantage of it.

Do we, as believers, stop and think whether or not such actions are Godly, or allowed by God's Word? Sadly, most do not. It's just too easy to go with the 'flow'; to go with the culture; to go with the law, and the (feminist) culture and law encourages our women to "You go, gal!" rather then to go with the Word (in this case, I Cor. 6).

Again, the focus here is not really so much about feminism, though that issue is a worthy one to discuss. Rather, the issue, whether we, men or women, black or white, rich or poor...whether or not we realize that our calling as genuine believers is to follow God...or take the easy route and follow man (or maybe 'woman' in this case).

Do we fight for what is right...or do we fight for what is 'right' for us?



One more thought before ending this post. I wondered if one could call my ex-wife a 'quality person?' Certainly her side of the family would think so. Probably so would our children. Her friends would also think that. And though I myself would not have agreed, before the creation of this thread, I still tended to think of her merely as someone who made a big mistake.

However, as the evidence of her wrong actions mounted as a whole for the first time in my own realization, I realized that in actuality she had a history of selfish, evil decisions; decisions that were not made with what God wanted, but rather with what SHE wanted. She actually does good things at times, I'm sure. She may do others a good turn. She might even chase down the person before her at a checkout stand in a grocery mart who left a purchase at the stand.

Does that make her a quality person? Perhaps in some ways, but what about in the only way that really counts - that of a life pleasing to God? Can a person who makes all the bad decisions in the ways that really count, when the stresses of life occur, when 'the rubber meets the road', be thought of as a genuine Christ-follower?

It's worth thinking about.



LOL. Had almost exactly the same thing happen just a few days ago. Only it was me that walked out leaving a card at self-checkout. I placed it in a bag separate to protect it, and then left it. But a considerate person gave it to the clerk near-by, and the clerk got it to me. Two considerate individuals.

We still got good people on this earth.
No. 238     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Survivor698   Gender: M   Age: 103   on  Oct 23, 2017 at 4:34 PM     
texascowgirl283 wrote:

But how many would put out that little 'extra' to chase that woman down?

Me.. in a heartbeat. I have twice done something nice for someone. I recently found a drivers license and found the woman in the parking lot and it gave to her.


I am one that regularly does such, often going above and beyond to do so.

I also had the DL thing recently. I found someone's DL in the parking lot at the car wash. No one there at the moment other than myself. I turned it in at the local police station a little ways down the road. Was out of the way for me, but I did it.

While there the gal behind the counter gave me another free handgun lock.
No. 239     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 23, 2017 at 7:55 PM     
Praying ... as you have " moved " through this thread Stormchaser ... that you can see you are at a different place with God than where you used to be years ago.
No. 240     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 25, 2017 at 11:31 AM     
Let’s keep in mind that a ‘quality person,’ one who does good deeds, is not necessarily a genuine believer in Christ. On the other hand, a genuine believer in Christ will always be a quality person, albeit still a sinner at times.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had another insight while driving around town yesterday. This was in regards to my ex’s lawyer during the Troubled Times. She retained a Christian lawyer who attended the same church that she did (keep in mind this was the same church described earlier that the Lord later took down for its sins).

Now lawyers, like doctors, supposedly have a code of ethics. One would think, then, a Christian lawyer would have even a higher code, that of Christ, over any secular ethics.

Let’s examine that further. This lawyer was hired to do a job. Nothing wrong with that. He was hired to represent a client, my ex. Nothing wrong with that either. I myself also hired a Christian lawyer (actually two, firing the first one for not doing a credible job).

But upon further examination, my wife’s lawyer was hired to do her bidding, and that’s where it gets a little dicey, for my lawyer was hired to defend me. Her lawyer was hired to help her to do evil; evil defined here as disobeying the Word of God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lawsuits Against Believers
1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers,
6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
7To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud--even your own brothers!
I Cor. 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The evil here defined is not that a believer cannot have a legitimate complaint against another, but rather the believer has committed a moral failure, a sin, by going to man rather than the Lord (through His Church) as Scripture mandates we do.

We have already established that my ex-wife was not in God-mode, seeking to follow His Word or precepts in order to heal the marital problems, but instead only focused on self-righteousness and judgmentalism.

How about her Christian lawyer? We know the results of my wife’s apostate actions. Did those actions, with his help, mean that he was apostate also?

Or is it that since he was 'only doing his job', that he escapes any sort of censure, since he himself was not part of the original problem, but only aiding in the ‘solution’ (recall Hitler’s solution to the Jewish ‘problem’)?

Now understand this – I do not have any animosity towards this guy. If she had not retained him, she would just have hired some other legal flunkie.

But again one must consider the position of those involved. If one is Christian, names the Name of Jesus Christ, is he not to held to a higher standard, that of following and obeying God’s Word? If so, when such a Christian represents another in a secular legal court (which Scripture says shouldn’t happen in the first place), shouldn’t such a person advise his client that the client is going against God’s Word with their actions and to first go to the Church?

Yet I’m guessing this guy never did that, for he STILL assisted her in disobeying God’s Word. His position was likely that the onus was on her; and that he was only doing his job, much like the Nazi leaders claimed of their own actions at the Nürnberg trials.

Can we, as true believers, get away with such a claim, such a position? Essentially, the claim is based on money, being paid to do a job and that makes it all ok.

You see, what we are really discussing here is ethics – Christian ethics, or the lack thereof.

Genuine believers have a whole different focus than worldly people. They have core commitments; commitments to the Lord to act and behave with God and His Word in mind. In short, they have ethics.

And if one has ethics, then monetary gain is placed in a secondary position…or should be.

Yet my ex’s lawyer, just by the fact that he represented her in secular court in an action against another believer whether or not he thought she had legitimate claims, exhibited the fact that he wasn’t interested in ethics or God’s word, but only that his primary motivation was monetary gain.

In short, like the German Nazi’s, he was only a henchman to his ‘leader’ (employer), only interested in doing her bidding.

That may sound harsh, but consider the results of his actions – he assisted in the destruction, the murder, of a covenant marriage. He assisted in the tearing away of innocent children from their parent. He assisted in stealing resources from a fellow believer. Theft. Murder. Kidnapping. Would those actions seem to you to be those of a genuine Christian believer...or more like a Nazi? Think about it.

That is the sort of thing that happens when you have someone who calls himself a Christian, yet has no Christian ethics. Whatever his personal code might be, when it comes to being a hireling, such becomes his true ethics.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hireling

[hahyuh r-ling]

noun
1. a person who works only for pay, especially in a menial or boring job, with little or no concern for the value of the work.

adjective
2. serving for pay only.
3. venal; mercenary.

(emboldened emphasis mine)

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


A final thought - above we read from God's Word 1 Cor. 6:1-8. Let's now finish the thought by adding verse 9 -


8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud--even your own brothers!
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?


And that, dear brothers and sisters, brings us back to the question posed in the OP.

Something to think about...


No. 241     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 28, 2017 at 1:51 PM     
Let's move on to the final warning of Hebrews, stated in two parts...

Warning #5:
The Danger of Denying (Part 1)
(Hebrews 12:12-29)


12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. 14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

18 For you have not come to a mountain that may be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned." 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I am full of fear and trembling." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. 25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying," Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 And this expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, in order that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:15-29).


We have superior privileges (Heb. 10:19-21), but with these come also greater responsibilities (10:22-25). We are exhorted to enter into these greater privileges (10:22) to hold fast to our profession of Christ as Savior because God’s promises will come to pass (10:23), and to encourage one another, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (10.24-25).

The reason we must do these things is because if we willfully sin having full knowledge of the sin and its consequences, God is forced to chasten us (10:26-29) because of His very nature (10:33-31). He cannot and will not let His children get by with this any more than we could let our children get by with this.

The Hebrews are thus encouraged to persevere in patience (10:32-39). They have previously endured (10:32-34) so they should continue (10:35-36) because the Word of the Lord stands sure (10:37) and all who please God must patiently endure, living by faith (10:38-39).

In fact, real faith produces patient endurance (11:1-3), and this is seen in every era of the Old Testament (11:4-40). The implication is, to go back to the Temple of Jerusalem is not to be joined to the faithful company of the Old Testament at all, but is to depart from them.

All of the Old Testament saints are a witness to us that the race can be run (12:1), and the only way to have rest is through patient endurance even as was true of the Lord Jesus Christ (12:2) . When we consider Christ and His sufferings, our sufferings and struggles are mild (12:3-4). But God has a purpose in the believer receiving discipline with patient endurance, and that is the maturity of His child (12:5-11).

So the believer has an obligation to weaker ones in the assembly (12:12-13) and to himself (12:14). He must know the three dangers that are before him (12:15-16) which may be illustrated by Esau’s decision which was irrevocable even though he regretted it later. Esau had neither faith nor patient endurance, and he was cut off by one act from the place of blessing (12:17).

By application, if the Hebrews returned to the old system of the Temple, they go to that of utter “terror” (12:18-22), and they leave in contrast the place of privilege and grace, and the heavenly city which is the reward of those who faithfully endure (12:22-24).

Therefore, there must be a final warning. Abel’s blood spoke continually on earth; Christ’s blood is greater and speaks continually from heaven that He shall come, judge, and bring in the new age with its new covenant (12:25-27). So patiently endure, offering spiritual worship as a believer-priest, knowing God purifies dross (12:28-29).

This carries us through the fifth warning. Now let us look at the context to this final warning in detail.

OUR RESPONSIBILITY IN LIGHT OF ALL OF THE FACTS PRESENTED (12:12-29)

1. The Exhortation (12:12-17)

12:12 - “Wherefore,” in light of all of these facts presented this conclusion goes back all the way to the willful sin in 10:26. In light of it and the truth presented from 10:26 to 12:11 the exhortation is given. “Lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees.” Here is our relationship to others in the body.

(1) Hands—we are to lift then up in prayer even as Moses did (Ex. 17:11-12) in order to win the victory for others. We are not to be defeated and discouraged. We are not to criticize someone else; we are to pray for them.

(2) Knees—feeble knees will not hold you up in the day of battle (Ezek. 7:17). We are to be strong in battle and not terrified by the adversary.

12:13 - “And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.”

(3) Feet—The Children of Israel wandered around in circles for 38 years without ever going anywhere. We are to make straight paths for our feet. We are to go on. We are to look unto Jesus, and setting our eyes on Him, not wander from the course set before us.

“Lame” here is “to be put out of joint” and it speaks of the shuffle of the paralytic, Some in the body were paralyzed, and they were traveling along with greatest of difficulty. The figure of the body is used to represent the church and its spiritual condition and it shows that the lame person is spiritually lame. This person is to be spiritually healed so that the whole body may move out and move on together, without some being left behind.

12:14 - “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” Here is the injunction to each person individually rather than collectively as in the preceding verses. “Peace” indicates there is to be no quarrel, no animosity between ourselves and anyone else. “Holiness” signifies we are to be set apart for the Lord. The one is our personal relationship with others; and the other is our personal relationship with the Lord Himself.

12:15 - “Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God.” This word “looking diligently” signifies searching out carefully or minutely just like the Israelites searched their homes before the Passover to rid them of all leaven. It is constant spiritual oversight by each one of us of our own lives. The reason is three-fold, brought out by the three occurrences of the word “lest.” Here are three dangers that every believer may face and for which he must be constantly on guard.

(1) “… lest any man fail of the grace of God.” This is failure on the part of the child of God to appropriate grace. Whenever I fail to appropriate grace for the needs of the day, I will fail when testing and temptation come. God has provided grace to meet it, but I have failed to appropriate it. I will then react according to my sin nature.

If God brings something into our lives, He will also give us grace to overcome it and gain the victory (2 Cor. 12:9), rather than to be overcome by it. “As our days, so shall our strength be.” These Hebrew Christians were going through trials and testings, but they had failed to appropriate God’s grace so as to stand up under the testings. Thus they were living defeated lives. They had failed of the grace of God.

(2) “… lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you., and thereby many be defiled.” This is open infidelity. Bitterness in the heart leads to murmuring with the tongue. And murmuring is one of the most dangerous sins because it always affects others and leavens the whole camp. It starts with one., but it ends defiling many. This is what happened in Israel over and over again.

So it is always, when I fail to appropriate grace, there will be a root of bitterness in my heart against God who has allowed this “trouble” to come, and it will ultimately come out in my speech.

(3) “… lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.” This final step and condition is open contempt of what is our responsibility or our privilege. The entire passage hinges on this one illustration. It is very significant.

There are two obstacles to holiness that are presented here: fornication and profane person. Esau represents the latter and this is also the danger of the Hebrews. “A little bit of material food” emphasizes for how little Esau sold his birthright.

Now the birthright and its significance to Esau can only be understood as one understands that this was not merely being heir of flocks and herds, and Esau rejected this. This is not the issue. God had made a covenant with Abraham, and that covenant promise was going to be fulfilled through Isaac’s heirs. Esau was the one in direct line, and being the elder son of Isaac would have received the elder son portion, i.e., two-thirds. But he surrendered for himself and his descendants the covenant promises of God for one meal. That is what he thought of God’s promises, and that is how much he wanted to wait, or patiently endure for them.

What was Esau’s problem? He failed to appropriate the grace of God (12:15a). Consequently, there was in Esau a root of bitterness against God. Esau was in trouble and hungry. He was angry with God because God could have prevented him from being hungry. This bitterness of heart expressed itself and he became materialistic. He recognized nothing but the here and now. He focused his whole attention on material things, not on invisible and eternal things. He thought more of one meal now than receiving the fulfillment of all the promises God had made at a later date. God calls this being profane. This is cursing God in the heart, and God looks upon the heart.

12:17 “For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.”

Esau represents here a covenant son. This is essential for one to realize or they will miss the point of the illustration. The Hebrews are also saved and in a covenant position in relation to God. Yet Esau was rejected on the basis of one decision, for this decision was irrevocable, even though he later sought to change the decision with tears.

This is the warning to the Hebrews lest they also make an irrevocable decision that would cut them off from blessing. Salvation is not in view here as it has not been in view anywhere beyond the first warning, but eligibility for blessing is in view.

In Hebrews 10:26 we found that the willful sin will bring temporal judgments upon the person who commits it. Now the added truth is here stated that this decision of sinning willfully is an irrevocable decision. If the Hebrews commit this, they will never be able to go back and change it later on regardless of tears or anything else. They will have turned from God’s blessings not found in Judaism, and will never be able to come back to the place of blessing now enjoyed. They will settle for a blasted life, and they will have disqualified themselves from any place of leadership ever again in the assembly. The sin can be forgiven, but the effects will continue on and on. Esau, for one sin, was cut off from God’s blessing. Take heed!

It all starts with a little thing of failing to appropriate the grace of God. But there are no little things in the Christian life. Let us look diligently lest any of us fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble us, and thereby many be defiled.

We are not immune to failure. [I]









------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[I] The Five Warnings of Hebrews, John W. Lawrence, BIBLE.ORG

[II] THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie, Zondervan.

[III] THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, "The Bible Speaks Today" (BST) series, IVP
No. 242     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 29, 2017 at 2:26 PM     
As I'm just beginning to look more into this 5th Warning of Hebrews, covered in my last post, I'm going to give some preliminary thoughts.

So this (from post #241)...

"He recognized nothing but the here and now. He focused his whole attention on material things, not on invisible and eternal things. He thought more of one meal now than receiving the fulfillment of all the promises God had made at a later date. God calls this being profane. This is cursing God in the heart, and God looks upon the heart.

12:17 “For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.”

Esau represents here a covenant son. This is essential for one to realize or they will miss the point of the illustration. The Hebrews are also saved and in a covenant position in relation to God. Yet Esau was rejected on the basis of one decision, for this decision was irrevocable, even though he later sought to change the decision with tears.

This is the warning to the Hebrews lest they also make an irrevocable decision that would cut them off from blessing. Salvation is not in view here as it has not been in view anywhere beyond the first warning, but eligibility for blessing is in view.

In Hebrews 10:26 we found that the willful sin will bring temporal judgments upon the person who commits it. Now the added truth is here stated that this decision of sinning willfully is an irrevocable decision. If the Hebrews commit this, they will never be able to go back and change it later on regardless of tears or anything else. They will have turned from God’s blessings not found in Judaism, and will never be able to come back to the place of blessing now enjoyed. They will settle for a blasted life, and they will have disqualified themselves from any place of leadership ever again in the assembly. The sin can be forgiven, but the effects will continue on and on"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What immediately occurs to me, based on my own experience, is the intransigence of my former wife. She was only focused on what she wanted, and like Esau, "focused ... whole attention on material things, not on invisible and eternal things."

The 'here and now' were only what was important to her. Immediate gain and appeasement to her wishes were paramount with no more than "thought more of one meal now than receiving the fulfillment of all the promises God had made at a later date" in evidence.

God has a very high view of marriage. It is not to be entered into lightly, and certainly not to be abandoned lightly. When one enters into a covenant with God, one should stick with it, in spite of stressful or adverse circumstances. And if one does desert a covenant with God, one should expect "God calls this being profane. This is cursing God in the heart, and God looks upon the heart."

And like with Esau, there was a price to be paid. With Esau, it was "Yet Esau was rejected on the basis of one decision, for this decision was irrevocable, even though he later sought to change the decision with tears.

This is the warning to the Hebrews lest they also make an irrevocable decision that would cut them off from blessing. Salvation is not in view here as it has not been in view anywhere beyond the first warning, but eligibility for blessing is in view."


Though my ex-wife was not aware of it, she was under judgment once she broke the marital covenant. When she deserted the marriage, she was placed (by me) under a time restraint. Though I at the time was not able to verbally state the biblical principle behind it, I knew inside that the desertion was more than just a sinful violation of the martial covenant; it was a much more serious breach of the covenant, in fact, it was a breaking of it.

Essentially, it was her statement, and consequent action, of being done with the marriage. I took that to heart, and in my own mind decided I was also done with her, with one caveat, and that caveat was that I would allow one year's grace for repentance. (Keep in mind that I myself had repented even before she had left the marriage).

Such repentance never came, and finally, at that point one year later, I was fully done with her and any marital reconciliation was off the table and I was going to move on with my life.

So like Esau, in one sense anyway, the consequences of the sin were irrevocable, and though Christian reconciliation is still possible, even up to today, marital reconciliation was no longer possible and temporal judgment was in effect. Obviously, on the surface, such judgment (decision) was mine, and not God's, yet was He not involved with one who claimed to be His, yet chose not to follow His Word and acted in disobedience, as a covenant-breaker?

I did at one point tell my ex, after she deserted, that I was done with her. It seemed to visibly shake her up a little , but afterwards, outwardly, she then ignored it, with no seeming thought of repentance even remotely considered.

There was a point, some 7 years later, where her (corrupt) church approached me through my then pastor to get together and work things out, but consider - this was 7 years of periodically being sued in court, and 7 years of being ripped from my children. My youngest daughter at the time of the break-up was approx. 9 yr. old. Add 7 years and she was 16 yrs. old, and we, as with the older children, missed all that parent-child bonding together. I don't even know if this attempt at reconciliation was initiated by my ex or her church leaders, but it was an abysmal failure, way too late to be of any good after 7 yrs of separation from my children, numerous lawsuits, and other similar considerations.

There are reasons for following God's Word. It's not all just because 'He says so' (though that is a primary reason), but for the good of our own welfare, we should obey. My ex chose to follow 'what was right in her own eyes,' and had to live with the consequences.

So far, she seems to have not greatly experienced the consequences of her actions, though certainly her children and husband have, but God is God and there will be judgment. Her consequences may not even be temporal for the most part, but there is little doubt there will be eternal consequences -

"this decision of sinning willfully is an irrevocable decision. If the Hebrews commit this, they will never be able to go back and change it later on regardless of tears or anything else. They will have turned from God’s blessings not found in Judaism, and will never be able to come back to the place of blessing now enjoyed. They will settle for a blasted life, and they will have disqualified themselves from any place of leadership ever again in the assembly. The sin can be forgiven, but the effects will continue on and on"

No. 243     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 31, 2017 at 11:42 AM     
"Shipwrecks"



As somewhat of an aside, though still having relevance, I got a tourism book from the library about the island of Malta, which I have been long interested in touring some day (Denise, who had been there, and I discussed it a few times).

So while viewing the book, I found one local interest is a church called the "Shipwreck Church." Obviously the name comes from the well-known event of the Apostle Paul shipwrecking on the island, and a clever name it is.

My thoughts briefly came back to my ex's church corrupt church on this thread, which could certainly be described as a 'shipwreck church,' if any church could ever be described as such, but that sad situation has already been covered a few times so let's let it lie.

But then my thoughts went to the whole apostasy thing. Wouldn't such 'believers' also be described as having made 'shipwreck' of their faith, their committment to God?

Hebrews talks about these believers, as we have been discovering, who have tasted of the goodness of God, and then have gone their own way. And as a rudderless boat may drift, these 'Christians' also have drifted, some so intent on their life 'below-decks' that they don't even see the shoals approaching on their bows...until they finally crash upon them and discover they have made a shipwreck of their faith...when it's too late to do anything about it.

The damage has been done, and their lives are over.

No. 244     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Oct 31, 2017 at 12:33 PM     
Stormchaser ...

I have always said we can turn back and see how well we mowed the grass, but with life and being a part of the Lord's ministry ... we can not always see what happened. I'm sure we can all say we have learned a few things along the way, but so many things are still not very clear to us. We soon learn to accept what happened, even if we are not sure of what did happen.

I did want you to know I was reading this thread ... and it was interesting to see how you were " reflecting " upon it all. If you are anything like me, I have been guilty a number of times in " over-thinking " something, when it would be best to let my mind rest.

I believe God does bless us by giving us " insights " we didn't see before ... something He wanted us to see ... something that only He could share with us. I smiled each time you had one.

Again, thank you for presenting this thread ... the time and effort you put into it ... and who knows ( as we trust God with it ) how it may be of help to someone else.

It could be ... there will be people who are not even here yet that will benefit in some way ... when they do get here. Isn't that something ?





No. 245     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Oct 31, 2017 at 1:35 PM     
Thank you for your comments, RPM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've had some additional thoughts about 'shipwrecks' and life aboard ships before the dangers of the sea manifest themselves.

I've been on a few cruise ships. When you are on a cruise ship, it's like being in your own world. You can enjoy all the below-decks life - the gambling, the dancing, the arts, the music, the food, your stateroom - all that...your own little world.

While on such a cruise, you allow others to control your life. Oh sure, you yourself decide on which actions you wish to participate with while on the cruise, but as far as the cruise itself, once you have made the more critical decision to entrust your destination to others (the cruise line; the ship pilot and captain), you put your life on 'cruise' (in one sense, drifting) and forget, for the time being, where your destination is and instead focus on the immediate, the below-decks life which has been offered to you to keep you busy, to keep you 'happy,', to keep you occupied.

You are not concerned so much with the actual dangers of the 'cruise,' however great or small they may be, much as the passengers of the Titanic did not bother themselves with the danger of icebergs. No, instead, like Esau (covered previously), you are engrossed with the immediate pleasures of 'cruising' (your daily life).

You are a cruiser.

You are not a sailor.

But a genuine Christian must be a sailor, should he not? A sailor is one who has bothered to take the 'helm' of his life, the rudder. He has bothered to learn how to 'sail.' He knows how to 'tack'; to direct his 'bearing' in life in order to best get to his destination safely and surely. He controls his own steering wheel, not leaving it to others while he foolishly indulges in the pleasures of the flesh in life.

He pays attention to the weather, and as the men of Issachar, he knows when to go one direction...or another. He knows when to take down the sails, and when to hoist the sails.

In a world of uncertain weather, he has developed skills to still persevere to his destination.

He is not a cruiser.
No. 246     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 1, 2017 at 10:20 AM     
Warning #5:
The Danger of Denying (Part 2)


How long has it been since you heard a message on hell? It has been quite a while hasn’t it? Perhaps many of you have never heard a message on the lake of fire. While I have read sermons on the subject, I have never heard one myself. This is not a very popular subject, and is neglected by default of those who do believe in it.

But., beloved, if there is not a hell to be saved from, then there is absolutely no need for a Savior to rescue us from it. A Savior is meaningless without a certain death. While I am not going to speak on hell, I do want to relate its truth to unbelievers.

We who are believers have experienced the Lord’s so great salvation. We have come to know that He saved us from an eternal death. We are saved and that salvation is eternal (Heb. 5:8-9). This eternal salvation has saved us from eternal judgment (Heb. 6:2). This is why it is so great salvation because He bore our eternal judgment in a point of time.

The believer’s problem, then, can never be eternal salvation or eternal judgment. That issue stands settled. “We are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul” (Heb. 10:39).

Our problem as believers is not a matter with sin that would cause us to lose our eternal salvation, but it is with sin that would cause us to lose the Lord’s blessings in our lives, and may even cause us to lose our lives in death. Our problem is with time—not eternity. Our problem is with our physical life—not our eternal soul. Our problem is with physical death—not eternal death.

This is the issue before the Hebrew Christians, and it is the issue with us also.

Some sins are small, but others are not. Some things we do are relatively unimportant, while other things are very important. This is why I John 5 speaks about sin not unto death., and about sin unto death. We are to stop and. take heed to ourselves and our actions “for our God is a consuming fire” (Heb. 12:29).

I want you to notice that this is never spoken in reference to unbelievers. God is not, and never will be, a consuming fire in reference to unbelievers. For unbelievers He will be an eternal fire that will consume nothing. However, in reference to the believer He is a consuming fire that will consume all that is wood, hay and stubble, and all that is thorns and briers. He will even take away our lives if we are completely displeasing to Him.

Never say, “that couldn’t happen here; it couldn’t ever happen to me.” This was the attitude at the time of Christ when they said: “If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves; that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets” (Matt. 23:30-31).

There is not any sin that we as believers are not capable of committing. This is why we are to take heed to ourselves lest we fall (1 Cor. 10:11-12; 1 Tim. 4:16; Heb. 4:11).

We saw in the last lesson that the route of any failure is a progression involving three stages.

(1) It begins with failing to appropriate grace. “… lest any man fail of the grace of God” (12:15a).

(2) The next step is having bitterness in the heart. “… lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled” (12:15b). Bitterness in the heart leads to murmuring with the mouth, and this leads others to sin also.

(3) The final step is open contempt of what is our responsibility or our privilege. “… lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.” Either one of these two sins permanently disqualifies one from service and from blessings therein.

Concerning these three things we are to search out ourselves and our hearts carefully, to give inspection, to oversee continually lest these things come into our lives unexpectedly and undetected. No one sins any other route. We fail to appropriate God’s grace for the situation or trial. This leads us to have bitterness in our hearts to God for allowing this hardship or difficulty to come upon us. What is in our hearts ultimately comes out and it defiles others. All this in turn causes a final state in which we settle for the temporal rather than the eternal; for the here-and-now rather than the hereafter; and for the material rather than the spiritual. We fail to patiently endure. This is what Esau did, and his decision was irrevocable. We are capable of doing the same thing.

Here is a young man or a young woman. The Lord has called them to the mission field. The way to Bolivia, or India, or Morocco is long and hard. They fail to appropriate the grace necessary for the way and for the testings along the journey. Then everything caves in. “God is not really concerned about me. He really does not love me. If He loved me He would have provided for me, and given me a life partner.” Then the person falls in love with someone not called to the field and they are married. They made a decision that is irrevocable. They have missed the perfect will of God and must settle the remainder of their lives for that which is His second best, His 20th best, or His 200th best.

Having given the exhortation not to fail (Heb. 12:12-17), we come to our next point …

(2) The Believer’s Privileges and Position (12:18-24)

18 For you have not come to a mountain that may be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned." 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I am full of fear and trembling." 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel (Hebrews 12:18-24)

The believer must understand his privileges and his position today or he cannot understand why the Lord will judge him so severely for disobedience. The author of this book states this truth both negatively and positively.

Negatively (12:18-21)

To go back to the law and the Temple is to go back to a system of terror. The law was a system of terror. “Do you not hear the law,” the writer is saying. The contrast here is between the Old Testament revelation and its responsibilities with the New Testament and its responsibilities and privileges.

Positively (12:22-24)

The one was “terror”; the other is “grace” and far superior privileges. The emphasis is not on the city, but on the One living in the city. Look at the occupants of the city.

(1) Angels, i.e., the holy angels.

(2) Church of the Lord Jesus Christ (which began at Pentecost and will end at the rapture).

(3) God, the Judge of all.

(4) Spirits of just men made perfect (the Old Testament saints who are not a part of the church nor ever will

be).

(5) Jesus., the mediator of the New Covenant.

(6) Blood of Sprinkling, i.e., the mercy seat, or the throne of grace as it is called in Hebrews.

This is the city we are looking for, not some earthly city. Abel was the very first person to offer blood sacrifice. It was a testimony from then on, even though he was dead, that this is God’s only method of acceptance and only way of approach (Cf. 11:4).

But now there is a greater witness than that of Abel, because there is greater blood in a greater place that is continually speaking to men. The blood of Jesus Christ is God’s only means of acceptance and only way of approach.

(3) The Final Warning (12:25-29)


In light of the better blood in a better place, and all the superior privileges we possess, there is a far greater obligation and responsibility that is ours.

12:25 - “See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh.” Literally it is “He who is right now speaking” (present tense). This ties the Epistle of Hebrews and its message into one unit. “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son” (Heb. 1:1-2) “Therefore … how shall we escape …” (Heb. 2:1,3).

These Hebrew believers in grace who reject the present voice of the Lord are guilty of a far greater sin than their fathers. Their fathers did not escape; so much more will they not escape. “How much more sorer punishment” (Heb. 10:29). “The Lord will judge His people” (Heb. 10:30).

It is not salvation, but temporal punishment that is in view here (cf. 1 Cor. 11:31-32).

12:26
- The One who spoke on Sinai is now the One who speaks from heaven in grace and bids us come. He is yet to speak one more time, and the last time He comes and speaks it will be in judgment.

You had better be right with Him. It is one thing to be out of step with an earthly monarch. It is something else to be out of step with the Sovereign of the universe.

The prophecy quoted here is from Haggai 2:6 and refers to the second coming of Christ. It pictures judgment which precedes the coming of a new age. The shaking of the earth will be the purifying judgment and the removal of all things not in conformity to the holiness of the Lord and not subject to the King.

God will yet do this for Israel. You had better be found on the right side in that day. The judgment in A. D. 70 was just a preview of the final judgment that will occur.

12:27 - Those things that can be shaken show they are temporary. What is unshakable manifests it is eternal. The Temple and the old covenant as prophesied are shakable and therefore temporary. The New Jerusalem and the new covenant are unshakable and eternal. The Temple will be completely destroyed. The old covenant will pass away, but both the New Jerusalem of the new covenant with the house of Israel will last forever. The shaking is viewed as already in process.

12:28 - The final appeal is given to “believers.” Believers are looked upon as in a process of receiving a kingdom. At the present time the Mediator is still in heaven. The establishment of this kingdom on earth with the New Jerusalem over the earth is definite and sure, yet it is still unseen. We must abide faithful, and obtain grace so as to patiently endure for our reward until He comes or until He calls home. In the meantime we are to serve the Lord acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

You do not love someone you do not respect. You cannot love the Lord unless you respect Him. The Lord will judge His children. You had better take heed and reverence Him. No child will deliberately sin without paying the full price in discipline from the Lord.

Acceptable service to God is in the called out assembly, not in returning back to the Temple and offering animal sacrifices.[I]






------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[I] The Five Warnings of Hebrews, John W. Lawrence, BIBLE.ORG

[II] THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie, Zondervan.

[III] THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, "The Bible Speaks Today" (BST) series, IVP

No. 247     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 3, 2017 at 2:34 PM     
Pain Language...Enduring hardship

We…in the Christian community can turn a deaf ear to this language of God, this pain language, or at best strain to hear God’s message through our difficulties, especially when they come at the hands of unfair and hurtful people. We weep at our emotional loss, our bitter sense of rejection and being misunderstood. Our pain deafens us to God’s music playing in the background, music that seeks to teach us to sing joyfully of what God can do in us, even while others seek to do harm to us. But we must ask him to discipline our ears to hear, to help us rouse ourselves to readiness for receiving what he wishes to teach us through our painful experiences. Speaking of enduring hardship, Thomas à Kempis, as if quoting Christ, writes:

The better you prepare yourself to meet suffering, the more wisely will you act, and the greater will be your merit. You will bear all the more easily if your heart and mind is diligently prepared. Do not say, “I cannot endure such things from this person,” or “I will not tolerate these things: he has done me great injury, and accused me of things I never considered; from another person I might bear it, and regard it as something that must be endured.” Such thoughts are foolish, for you ignore the merit of patience and Him who rewards it, and think only of the person who has injured you and the wrong you endure.

You are not truly patient if you will only endure what you think fit, and only from those whom you like. A truly patient man does not consider by whom he is tried, whether by his superior, his equal, or his inferior; whether by a good and holy man, or by a perverse and wicked person. But however great or frequent the trial that besets him, and by whatever agency it comes, he accepts it gladly as from the hand of God, and counts it all gain.
[II]




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[I] The Five Warnings of Hebrews, John W. Lawrence, BIBLE.ORG

[II] THE NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY (HEBREWS), George H. Guthrie, Zondervan.

[III] THE MESSAGE OF HEBREWS, Raymond Brown, "The Bible Speaks Today" (BST) series, IVP
No. 248     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 4, 2017 at 12:32 PM     
With the conclusion of The Five Warnings of Hebrews, we're at the end of the main body of the thread, I think. The last two warnings I listed without too much commentary of my own, as my personal focus was with the first three warnings, but one should be mindful of all of them.

Now it is time to begin wrapping up this thread (finally). I will begin posting my conclusions based on what I have learned both from my studies and from applying those learnings to my own particular experience.

After that, and any consequent interactions or questions, I will be pretty much done, other than a possible return to the thread at times with any new insights the Lord might bring to me.
No. 249     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Nov 4, 2017 at 1:51 PM     
:coffeenpc:
No. 250     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 5, 2017 at 10:43 AM     
Conclusions/Summation

It is interesting that this thread is now one year old, something I had not intended. Interest has remained ongoing, with the current number of 'hits' at near 5600 (near 500/month), but in a way not surprising as the general question behind the specific one has been not all that clearly understood, yet very concerning to people. That general question is apostasy, of course, with the specific question that of the OP.

So let's review one conclusion I already related. When I began this thread, I had thought my ex-wife as still a Christian. Problems yes (SERIOUS problems!), but as someone who still could be identified as Christian. Keep in mind that in a sense, I was being generous with her in that viewpoint, giving her a pass.

But, as first the marital violations in their entirety came together in this thread for the first time, and then the actual breaking of covenant with not only myself, but with God, a whole new understanding reared itself.

And as I began to explore the biblical definition of apostasy (which I only had a foggy idea of previously), I realized how well the shoe fit.

So my first conclusion, based on Scripture, is my ex-wife is an apostate.

That conclusion, of course, only begins to answer the OP.
No. 251     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Nov 5, 2017 at 3:29 PM     
" Farther along we'll understand why " ... as we sing the ole hymn.

I have not thought much about an " apostate " either ... but it does make sense. It's good to see how God has brought you through it all and brought you to where you are now Stormchaser.
No. 252     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Nov 5, 2017 at 9:01 PM     
Apostate means little more than backsliding for which I'd agree as far as any sin we might fall into (to include divorce without the Lord's approval of the same) ...

but does it truly answer if anyone is a 'true' Christian?

Perhaps you have not finished your conclusion in answering the OP, but I am giving my full thoughts and beliefs here now as for my own ...

From the OP: So what do YOU think or believe?


I am so happy to have a Just and Merciful Lord Whose Blood was poured out for someone as wretched as myself. Dare I judge His Work? What if I am wrong? Is it worth the chance?

I say this not to stand against you here, but in hope. My conclusion is freedom from the pain of another's sin or hurt in our lives (regardless of what transgression or who or how it was performed).

No. 253     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 6, 2017 at 10:31 AM     
Backsliding is a term I have had some thoughts of over the last several days, but it is a concept that probably should be fit into the apostasy understanding, rather than a stand-alone term.

In other words, let's take a good look at apostasy.

Upon investigation, I have found that most who define apostasy regard it as limited to those who approach the definition of being a Christian, but never quite make the cut. That is how I now define my ex, as mentioned earlier.

Though this study of The Warnings of Hebrews, however, it has become quite clear that the warnings are directed to a Christian audience. If so, then that might also incorporate the more common use of the term 'backslider,' as the First Warning in Hebrews 2 covers "Do not drift away...,' the essential idea of a backslider as I understand it.

So which is it, then? Is an apostate one who has approached the throne of God, but then turned away before actually kneeling to the King?

Or is he one who has kneeled and given his life to the King, and then 'backslided'?

God has led me to a different conclusion, one where He keeps His sovereign right of decision on this matter.

As I (now) see it, we need to stick with what scripture teaches us, and not go one milimeter beyond that.

And what does Scripture teach us? It teaches us about apostasy. It doesn't really (or clearly) tell us that an apostate might have eternal life, though some might feel it does.

Nevertheless, a pragmatic course would be to recognize that apostasy is not limited to either believers or would-be believers, but the idea can incorporate both. If we take that as our basic understanding and modus operandi, then we can bypass the quagmire of a theological morass and focus on meeting peoples' needs wherever they are at, and let God worry about their eventual destination, which is His proper bailiwick anyway.

So that is what I believe the Lord is teaching me.

Now, how does that relate to the OP, If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?

Simply this - we don't know - only God truly does. But what we do know is that a genuine believer, a disciple, is one whom is disciplined, obedient, and one who perseveres. Such a one may violate a covenant at times, but does not walk out from a covenant made with God and stays unrepentant in that condition.

I had to add that word 'unrepentant,' but my first inclination was to go without it. If I did that, however, I would be myself guilty of going beyond what scripture teaches, as I have just suggested we should not do.

Even so, my opinion is that a true disciple does not walk away from covenants, but rather seeks to live out his or her solemn word to God. I would not want to eventually face God's judgment as a covenant-breaker.




No. 254     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Nov 6, 2017 at 2:12 PM     
Stormchaser wrote: I had to add that word 'unrepentant,' but my first inclination was to go without it. If I did that, however, I would be myself guilty of going beyond what scripture teaches, as I have just suggested we should not do.


Who determines if one is 'unrepentant?' We can 'assume' or speculate by one's actions that the other is not repentant, but who can read another's heart but the creator of the same? Will one be repentant today or tomorrow? Only God knows. The truth is I cannot sail my own ship very far (God is needed). The same is true of marriage. Surrendering ourselves to the Lord can take 'years' for some and is rather fast for others I've witnessed. In a Church assembly, we might say all are believers ... but who are those that follow? Either way, we know sin leads to death of both the believer and the non-believer. It is all dependent upon 'who' we allow to steer our lives.

Even so, my opinion is that a true disciple does not walk away from covenants, but rather seeks to live out his or her solemn word to God. I would not want to eventually face God's judgment as a covenant-breaker.


I agree as well. The imposters will always be and there will be wolves among us, but we are unaffected in the long run when our focus is upon His Will alone. The Lord's Will is discernment. Women in particular can think they are exercising discernment, but often they are to the contrary exercising sin (Eve has not come a long way baby in my own estimation when looking upon this earth). His Will in our lives/His instruction is always what needs to be on the front burner of our minds.

So I repeat something stated fairly early in this thread that did not bring about any quarrel...if a Covenant is made with the Lord (such as marriage is), then prayer and the Lord must be 'first' in that union (everyday -- a guiding light). When it is not ... the covenant is lacking its necessary Leadership (God). Blame never surfaces peace in one's soul or in a marriage (only God can offer what is of Him).

All the rest -- is second (to include feelings and even our own desires) and it s for the survivor of all transgressions/sin (to include being left by a spouse for nonbiblical reasons) against them to seek God all the more as He is the victory over sin.

(Again just adding additional thought -- I offer no debate here). Off to wash my car. Hope you have a joy filled day.



No. 255     Reply: Re: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 6, 2017 at 5:24 PM     
CAsandie wrote:

Stormchaser wrote: I had to add that word 'unrepentant,' but my first inclination was to go without it. If I did that, however, I would be myself guilty of going beyond what scripture teaches, as I have just suggested we should not do.


Who determines if one is 'unrepentant?'


Are you agreeing with me (that I don't know) or are you disagreeing with me that I should not add the word 'repentant'?


We can 'assume' or speculate by one's actions that the other is not repentant, but who can read another's heart but the creator of the same? Will one be repentant today or tomorrow? Only God knows. The truth is...


The truth is, you are making unwarranted assumptions based on a limited set of bible verses.

In my situation, I have been quite clear that I don't know much of my ex's current state of affairs when it comes to her relationship with the Lord. Even so, I do know one thing - she has not repented!

How do I know this? Because many times repentance involves our human relationships with each other. Scripture teaches that if we have offended a brother (or sister), we are to lay our sacrifice at the altar and go make things right with that person, otherwise our gift to the Lord means nothing.

That is how my ex knows I repented. I did so, quite clearly and openly, in direct conversation with her, before she even deserted the marriage. There are no assumptions involved here.

And that is how I know she has not repented, for she has never approached me to do so, even now, 20 years after breaking her covenant and her grievous offenss against the marriage...and against me.

So this is not, as you assume, a judgment of her heart, but it IS a judgment of her actions. It is as clear as knowing she had a moral problem of disobedience for disobeying 1 Cor. 6, where God's Word tells us not to be taking each other to court. Yet she did so, over and over and over and over and over. No heart judgement involved...just hard, cold facts.

So ratchet down the heartburn. Seek calmness, for my next point will severely test you, lol.
No. 256     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  RadioPreacherMan   Gender: M   Age: 59   on  Nov 6, 2017 at 8:32 PM     
:popcorn:
No. 257     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Nov 7, 2017 at 11:12 AM     
Storm --

Are you agreeing with me (that I don't know)


Thanks for asking. I was agreeing.

In my situation, I have been quite clear that I don't know much of my ex's current state of affairs when it comes to her relationship with the Lord. Even so, I do know one thing - she has not repented!

How do I know this? Because many times repentance involves our human relationships with each other. Scripture teaches that if we have offended a brother (or sister), we are to lay our sacrifice at the altar and go make things right with that person, otherwise our gift to the Lord means nothing.

That is how my ex knows I repented. I did so, quite clearly and openly, in direct conversation with her, before she even deserted the marriage. There are no assumptions involved here.

And that is how I know she has not repented, for she has never approached me to do so, even now, 20 years after breaking her covenant and her grievous offenss against the marriage...and against me.

So this is not, as you assume, a judgment of her heart, but it IS a judgment of her actions. It is as clear as knowing she had a moral problem of disobedience for disobeying 1 Cor. 6, where God's Word tells us not to be taking each other to court. Yet she did so, over and over and over and over and over. No heart judgement involved...just hard, cold facts.


Court is interesting, is it not? A lawyer will seek to convict rather than 'praying' for the souls of the parties (plural) of whatever the offense is.

We never 'know' another's relationship with the Lord (or it would be our own relationship and it is not, but His).

One of the definitions given for apostate is backsliding (I did not offer you the definition, because I offer no quarrel here). I love you Storm. I know your hurt regardless if you think I can relate or not here. We can only account for ourselves and ask the Lord to remove all sin from our own hearts and to guide those we love (to include our enemies and those who harm us) to reconciliation with the Lord.

The opposite of love is 'always' sin or apostate of His Will for us/His Commandment of us). Always. Are we true Christians if we fail to apologize personally, confess our sins and seek personal apology? It is a sin. Yes, then we all fall short. Yet, marriage is sacred between two (the couple) and the Lord 'solely.' (friends can offer counsel as can elders if sought, but I tread lightly when asked for counsel myself in regards to something that is sacred between two people and the Lord).

I believe there is one villain and that is satan (we do not battle the flesh and blood). So if a married couple shall fight...they fight against themselves (they are one). It is the same when Brother rises against Brother in the Lord (they fight themselves as they are untied through Christ).

If I can personally ... I seek forgiveness from the flesh, but it is not always given to me (apology or reconciliation). To the contrary, I notice among some ... any discussion where disagreement is given can gather more insult rather than apology from some individuals. This can lead to total separation (a desire to no longer have contact with the insulting party [whether it be anger or not ... certainly there is sin there as well]). The fact is many fail to handle emotion properly. If I focus on judging the other to be without God ... it leaves my soul emptier than where it was when reconciled with the other (this I say not in ignorance but with knowledge).

Regardless of the fact that not all 'know' the gravity of their wrongs when performed, for certain growth is given to us from the hand of the Lord as well as redemption from sins. Who knows but God when He will guide or discipline His? When He will pardon or not a believer who has erred?

Healing I am certain though is given us through the author of 'love' and through devote focus on Him and His Glory.

(None of what I write is through limited study. You are free to rebuke my words. I tread lightly here though).

mod typo (I am rushed lately and apologize if missing points made/more typos/grammar errors exist).

No. 258     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 8, 2017 at 12:27 PM     
Conclusion/Summation

Is (personal) forgiveness the ‘be-all’ and ‘do-all’ answer for Christians in human relationships?

This topic came up earlier in this thread. I’ve reviewed those posts dealing with this, including my own, and what I’ve concluded is that though while forgiveness is essential to our faith and relationships, there are other principles that are at times involved, principles that include repentance, restitution, accountability, discipline, and more.

We cannot throw these biblical principles out the door in favor of a ‘forgiveness-only’ doctrine, or all-encompassing ‘forgiveness is enough’ mantra. Should we do so, we have essentially placed ourselves in the universalism camp, and that camp is not interested in the whole Word of God, but only of cherry-picking verses to make their point, and that point is we only need to rely on forgiveness to cure all our ails.

That sounds good, but the serious Bible student will know that scripture talks about additional steps that might be required at times to bring about peace among the saints. We do no one any good to merely say, “Forgive” and think that is the only and complete answer to problems that at times crop up between believers. It’s a great place to start, and sometimes it is enough; other times more is required. The Bible teaches this, and we should also.

That is why we have biblical instruction as to how to heal offenses between brethren. That is why we have biblical instruction as to how to bring erring brethren back into the fold. We don’t just ‘forgive’ them and go our merry way – instead, we take action, for there is one other concept that stands hand-in-hand with forgiveness, and that concept is LOVE, God’s Love, and out of that love we at times must go beyond merely forgiving one who has chosen to walk a disobedient or ungodly path. Merely forgiving them their actions does little to bring them back if they have already experienced forgiveness and have decided to drift away, as we have just learned from the Book of Hebrews.

We must be wise in these matters…and biblical. Forgiveness is a wonderful character quality, and yes, at times, can help bring about changes in the one we forgive, but again, there is quite a bit in God’s Word that instructs us to do more than just forgive at times, when it is needed.

I had intended to go more deeply into this, as I have learned more since the topic originally came up, but really, it is enough to state the basics, and I won’t be debating it this time as the thread is now in its conclusion mode.
No. 259     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 9, 2017 at 11:43 AM     
Odds & Ends

Here's a thought that occurred to me a few weeks ago.

Scripture tells us to marry "only in the Lord."

Most think that means a Christian should only marry a Christian, right?

So in my situation, my marriage was broken, biblically speaking. The covenant was abandoned. The offender physically moved out. A legal divorce was eventually granted to her.

------------------------

Then, 7 yrs. later, her church decided to take action (described previously). When they were rebuffed, they sent me a one-page letter of excommunication since I refused to meet with them after that long period of inactivity on their part.

Here's the thing though...according to bibical understanding, the marriage was broken, i.e. there was no longer a marriage.

And as now known, I no longer believe that she was a genuine believer, but rather one of the 'Lord, lord...' people, which leaves us in the situation that if indeed I would be obedient to scripture telling me to marry only in the Lord, and since the marriage was broken (not just damgaged), its leadership was in actuality attempting to get a genuine believer (me) to (re)marry an unbeliever (her).

An interesting thought, no?

No. 260     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 10, 2017 at 10:27 AM     
Conclusions/Summation

A few more thoughts about consequences.

We've already discussed, to whatever degree, about the consequences to others, whether those others are victims (children) or spouse who's in it for the long run - the one who honors his or her covenant in bad times as well as good.

Sadly, being an innocent or a true believer does not protect one from disaster or heartache.

But what are the consequences for the deserter, the covenant-breaker?

First of all, the Lord has taught me that the person who has turned apostate can either be believer or one of the 'Lord, lord...' people (one who will be rejected at the final judgment). Others may disagree with me, and that is fine, but I can only go with what I have personally discerned.

Well, for the 'Lord, lord...' ones I've just stated the consequences - being cast out at the final judgment. In the meantime they may or may not face temporal judgment. Keep in mind that these people, though perhaps of some quality (discussed earlier) or not, still walk in the paths of the wicked, however 'good' they may appear or some of their actions are. They may not walk in the totally wicked paths, yet they abandon righteousness whenever righteousness becomes inconvenient for them.

Such were the pathways of my ex-wife.

And what of the believers? The backslidden?

Scripture teaches that some will enter the kingdom as by fire. The Bible does talk about rewards in heaven, though not a lot. The assumption usually made of such ones is that they will be at the bottom of heaven's barrel regarding rewards.

My own opinion is that believers will be rewarded with more responsibility in the coming kingdom, consistent with the way they have lived their lives in obedience in their temporal lives. For those who make it by fire, I do not think their rewards will be great.

Will there be shame for such ones? I don't really know - one might assume that there will be no hurt of any kind in heaven, but again, I just don't know.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev. 22

11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy." 12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly, I don't think the believer who deserts his covenant with God, deserts his marriage, knows scripture very well at all, i.e. most Christians. Right there is a major problem, for a genuine Christian will want to know God's Word better than he does, and then be obedient to it. An apostate, backslidden Chrstian or not, does not exhibit such inclinations.
No. 261     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 12, 2017 at 7:11 PM     
Something jimmylynn said earlier in the thread has a lot going for it...

"Seems we tell a christian by their actions. if actions stink then why would we think they are a christian? because they say they are? because they go to church? because they got baptized? because they tithe?"
No. 262     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  CAsandie   Gender: F   Age: 103   on  Nov 13, 2017 at 10:50 AM     
Believing or following? The ideology that some fall 'shorter' than the 'shortness' we ourselves fall never truly addresses the fact that it is God's Mercy alone that saves...does it? (this is applicable in discernment of others).

I return to my former posts in questioning -- not in debate here:

Christ stated:

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Paul later gave us this understanding of humbleness and humility:

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

As far as forgiveness, whether one forgives or not -- it does not harm the other person. It is a matter of Holiness in my own understanding of the Lord's instructions (and one's own peace/avoidance of bitterness that we are not to hold on to. Hurt needs healed and to move forward in Him not holding on to pain, in my own understanding:

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

So I would ask who believes despite falling short and the answer would be 'all of us.' Who then says another fell short and thus is not deserving of salvation, yet seeks salvation her/himself? While falling short and seeking forgiveness her/himself (yet not being able to forgive another who transgressed)? Do you see the conundrum?

Leaving the judgement to God and seeking forgiveness to flourish for the other transgressing and light to come upon him or her to me fills a 'void' in this ruthless and chaotic world.

There are worse tragedies than divorce or a spouse leaving another. Many are struggling for their very lives and we all leave one another in the end (die). So hate divorce, but not one's Sister or Brother who fails and remain hopeful of repentance (my thoughts here -- not seeking debate).

(sorry typos and adding: The Covenant with our bride groom, Christ is the greatest [though it best we not vow if it is to be broken later [God hates Divorce and detests a lofty eye as well).

No. 263     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 13, 2017 at 10:56 AM     
For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:17).

I am transposing my daily studies back to the Book of Romans, using Barnhouse’s commentary Romans.

I see that the last entry in my study journal was on Rom. 5:17, and I am not surprised that I find (and will be finding) relevance to this thread.

J.B. Phillips paraphrases this text thus: "For if one man’s offense meant that men should be slaves to death all their lives, it is a far greater thing that through another man, Jesus Christ men by their acceptance of his more than sufficient grace and righteousness should live all their lives like kings!”


TRIUMPHANT LIFE (Barnhouse)

“Thousands of Christians live and die without knowing the true victory that is possible for them in Christ. But we must not mistake the experience of some Christians for true Christian experience. Christian experience is that which is positionally ours in Christ. Like money in the bank it is there in our name; we are free to draw on it and spend it in daily living. But very frequently the experience of Christians is a miserly matter. They prefer to live in their own strength and will not avail themselves of the Lord’s provision for victory. If you are not living in the triumph which Christ has made available for you, there can be no doubt that the fault lies within you. He has made it possible for you to live the life of a king.”



Well, isn’t THAT interesting?

Could we say that the life of one who abandons their covenant with the Lord is comparable to living the life of a king? Or are they living in their own strength, a “miserly” matter?

Is a covenant deserter living a life of true victory possible to them in Jesus Christ when they choose to 'go' rather than 'stay'?

Is this part of "triumphant life?"

Or will these errant ones, at the end of their lives, cast their sad eyes on their past life experiences, and wish they could do it over; wish for a second chance to present themselves as worthy laborers of Christ, rather than deserters when the times got rough?


No. 264     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 13, 2017 at 11:02 AM     
"If this is your army...why does it go?"

- William Wallace (Braveheart)
No. 265     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 20, 2017 at 4:40 PM     
This thread continues to rack up the hits, even though the conclusion(s) have been made. This tells me there is still great interest in the OP.

That's fine, for the thread, in a way, is not over.

Earlier I made an Odds & Ends post, and it is likely that I will continue to do so as the Lord brings up points in my mind.

So posts may continue to be made. I may do one myself this evening or tomorrow. As (my) concluding comments are now finished, I will be open to more debate on future points.
No. 266     Reply: Re: If a Spouse leaves a marriage unbiblically, are they a true Christian?   
By:  Stormchaser   Gender: M   Age: 64   on  Nov 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM     
Odds & Ends...


TOXIC CULTURE


An underlying effect on the OP might be the toxic culture that is effecting the marriage paradigm.

Quite obviously the culture is at war with the stabilizing idea and effect of marriage. Hence the reason of it’s tearing down marriages, in light of its own (Luciferian) goals.

Combine that with the culture’s war on demonizing men, and you end up with…well…what we have.

When Abraham came to the land of Canaan, he found a toxic culture already in place, so much so that he had to go outside the culture, outside the land, to find a good wife for Isaac.

Similarly, Isaac and Rebekah were forced to send Jacob outside the culture and country to find a good wife for him.

Western society, just like the land of Canaan, has become so toxic that western men can no longer find good wives. They are realizing, more and more, that the culture is at war with them and geared to take them down.

This is not just in the United States. It is also true for the United Kingdom, Canada. Australia, and Japan.

It’s not just that there are no good women of marital quality left, but rather the difficulty of finding them. Even so-called ‘Christian’ women are often influenced by the culture, and as soon as they are no longer pleased with their husbands, in the end turn against their men in favor of their new ‘husband,’ the socialized and feminized western government of their land, which will help them legally turn their former husbands into debt slaves, all based on feminine whim.

We can argue feminism and its effects, I suppose, but its effects are undeniable in western society.

Men are dropping out, becoming under-achievers, and even giving up on the possibility of sexual relations with women, for such activities now come with a ‘hook,’ children being ripped from them and lifelong financial enslavement. Instead, they turn to video games, porn, and essentially a life without female involvement.

In the US, this is known as MGTOW (men going their own way). In the UK, it is known as ‘man desserts.’ Australia calls it a ‘man drought.’ Japanese men who opt-out are now known as ‘herbivores,’ and Chinese women who unwillingly experience the lack of marriageable men are known as ‘leftover women’.

What does all this have to do with the OP? Simply this – most divorces are initiated by women, unsurprising when the legal system has been co-opted by feminist-favored laws. Water tends to flow in the easiest path before it, so it’s not a big leap to understand that women will tend to take advantage of laws favoring them, and since divorce laws now overwhelmingly do so, there is little to hold them to their vows when they become displeased with their men and marriages.

‘Christian’ women seem to exhibit little or no differences from their secular sisters when things get rough. When things get to a certain point, it’s all too easy to engage a ‘Christian’ lawyer, perhaps from their own church, to ‘fix’ things, always in their own favor, of course.

And so the culture has become toxic to men – ALL men. Christian men face the same consequences of feminine displeasure of not having THEIR own needs met (those of the woman, of course. Men's needs are always placed in 2nd place, if even considered at all), same as secular men.

The culture’s legal system will rip their children from them, almost always in favor of the women (90% of all court decisions go for women), with no real fair way for them to continue on as fathers, however the political correctness still proclaims that they are “still” the fathers of the children. That’s certainly true for the financial support of the children (as well as the ex-wife), and the system will plunder the fathers to the point of bankruptcy, but the reality is in all too many cases their relationship with their children has been essentially destroyed.

And THAT, dear brothers and sisters, is why you see most of the marital abandonment and desertion of ‘Christian’ spouses is by women. Who walks out of Christian marriages nowadays? Argue all you wish, but documented facts point mainly in one direction – women.

Individual situations will still vary, of course, and you might find Godly women fighting for their marriages while the man seems to care little to retain the marriage. But we're not discussing any one situation, or any one woman or man, but rather the toxic trend of society which at present is anti-marriage and anti-manhood.

It's not going to end well, and even at present society is being corrupted to the point of breaking down. This anti-masculinity movement is greatly contributing to it, and marriages are being destroyed.